Destroyers Discussion (getting rid of pin point drops)

[caspofungin]

this is very frustrating. i can get the game to have uberhydrophones and uberasdic, or crappy hydrophones and crappy asdic, but not crappy hydrophones and uberasdic, which is what i'd like. hydrophones can be limited by max range, but then you can still be picked up at silent. if i play w/ default sim (ie no named entries) and tweak it eg w/ Ducimus' noise/wave values, then hydrophone has "better" limitations, but pinging won't start until escort is at v close range.

on a somewhat separate topic--
the escort ai has always been relatively aggressive in my games. torp a ship, expect an escort "now for the pay off" as they say. they may not detect me, but they will come looking. even if there's a straggler left behind, literally 20k from the rest of the convoy, if i torp him, an escort will detach and come sniffing about. is that v different to what you guys have experienced?

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by caspofungin

the escort ai has always been relatively aggressive in my games. torp a ship, expect an escort "now for the pay off" as they say. they may not detect me, but they will come looking. even if there's a straggler left behind, literally 20k from the rest of the convoy, if i torp him, an escort will detach and come sniffing about. is that v different to what you guys have experienced?

Exactly that. My problem is, they never find me. Of course now that ive raised their passive sonar ablities so they can hear a sub captain so much as fart anywhere within 3000 meters , they only seem to find me if they catch the broadside of the sub at 3000 meters or less.

They always run off in seperate directions for a look see. NEVER where im curertnly at. So long as they do that, i will not be caught unless i want to be caught. EDIT: AND THIS is the difference between a mission like U505 and a campign convoy encounter. The DE's in the U505 mission, ALWAYS come looking in the right area to find you. IN campaign, they seem to look in the right areas.

[caspofungin]

how far are you getting pinged at, and what are your ai_sensors values for asdic ranges?

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by caspofungin

how far are you getting pinged at, and what are your ai_sensors values for asdic ranges?

Only changes i made to active sonar was a minium distance or 170, and i dumbled down the sensitivity of one of the actives from 0.7 to 0.6. Everythign else i left the same.

Same with passive sonar, i only changed the min distance to 400 (currently 300) everything else i left the same excepting my sim.cfg changes.


I have been pinged at about 1200 meters (which is normal)

On one encounter in campaign a escort starting pinging at about 3000 -4000 meters away. Thats not saying he pinged ME at that range, but he started looking around with active. He did find me. The way he behaved he heard someting on passive, immediatly started to look aggressivly, and i guess zeroed in on me with passive and then with active. The fun thing was he was pning the whole time he was looking for me. This i the escort i changed my aspect on and pointed my bow to. Once he lost me on passive (400 meter min range) and active (170 meter range) he made abotu 3 or 4 half hearted runs and went back to the convy. Once he lost contact, it was like, "I dont want to play with you anymore!"

[gouldjg]

I think we are approaching one of the cruxes of the problem here.

We can improve our chances to be detected but the same game rules are applying as far as the Ships are concerned.

Our min ranges maybe making them not be as clever as we thought it would. Maybe, we need to look at other things also.

They will snoop and if we have gone silent etc, then they will go back to normal rules. Any ideas????

Rules of DD should now be looked at,

I think we all know how hard it is going to be to changes escort DDs i.e. the manual changes will take ages and thats only after we have proved there is a distinct difference in there modes or settings in campaign files.

I guess I am going have to look at doings some single mission test to see what happens with different settings and different ships.

With regards to there attacking,

We are left with the problem of having min ranges to stop uberness,

My Hydro min & Max range works fine for me i.e. no uber, I can stay silent and not be detected even if DD is close bye, If I am silly, I am detected at 6000 mtre.

I although have got the same min ranges as you guys and therfore maybe suffering the same problem, They snoop do a couple of half harded attacks and then shoot off.

I originnally wanted a min range for actives but am beginning to wonder if in fact I should not have this, and just reduce other things to make them less uber at pin point but more active in attacks.

The only thing is finding that magic setting that would allow me to escape the locks. i.e. bearing, aspect if it works, other tweaks. If only I could guarentee that I could have escape plans with actives then I am made.

This is why I am eager to try Redwines or anyones tweaks in this area.

Hemisent has noticed this which is a good thing really allthough it was passive ranges feedback and pin point feedback I was after, not ai feedback cos I knew there was still problems with that part.

So, it is down to knowing what makes the DD click into modes. Could it be so simple that it just requires more setting to change some to hunter convoys etc etc.

Edit

excuse the terrible spelling, the kids are pecking me of the pc.

[CB..]

Originally Posted by Col7777

As for the sound of your sub, I hated the engine noise and changed my engine sound file a long time ago, I forgot all about this till you mentioned it CB, but I stll get detected no problem.

I read you post CB about the DD's behaviour when they keep stopping for a sound check and when you are detected how one waits while the other makes a charge in your direction.
The one waiting is obviously telling the charger your position, then they swap roles, is this the noise factor or the speed settings in the cfg files?

this is down to the speedfactor i think Col---with the weird sim.cfg entrys the destroyers etc can only get a hydrophone contact when they are more or less stationary---but oh boy is is a good hydrophone contact lol ubered to heck and back --

they seem to do this sort of thing normally even when the game is completely stock- so i thought that would be something i'd like to get going to the full--as it's at least entertaining and interesting DD behaviour--

your sim cfg idea enabled me to give them a really excellent hydrophone that would make the stationary escort uber and the attacking one blind--using the speedfactor= 0.5 ( 0.5 knots max speed above that the sensor goes dead)
luckily this works really well and the AI seem to thrive on it--as it is just asking them to do what they would normally do--but making it a much more vital part of their behaviour--

roger that on the engine noise i did the same thing and quitened down the internal engine noise because i wanted to hear the DD's propellors as they went overhead--that sonar guy doing his constant reports is nice but often he doesn't pick the closest DD and gets annoying after a while-- in fact if you set all the internal sub sounds to silence engines etc ambient and so on you really can hear the DD's by panning the view around--bit weird but actually quite good fun--

i was wondering tho with TT's mini tweaker being able now to adjust the ranges at which you heard the sounds --increae the range of an aircrafts sounds and you hear it from much further away for example--

if you were to increase the range the subs screws were heard would this mean that the DD's would now hear from that range or does the game noty work like that?

he he i wonder about my equipment sometimes so i dunno which is what lol!! :hmm: funny thing about that corvette was that the stationary DD that was feeding it info was one of the american uber DD's you sometimes meet--so it had the strongest sensors-- not sure if this mattered might have done-- be pretty intelligent if the AI adapted and told the DD with the strongest sensors to do the monitoring whilst another did the attacking--would be interesting if it did--dunno tho


on the DD or DE thing i'm not sure --if anything their top speeds play a major role--not sure what else--might be something waitingto be discovered along those lines posibly down to the Class number in the sea ship cfg files--each type of ship has it's own class number--


with this stationary uber- attacking blind set up i have begun to notice during night encounters that the DD's seem to be use-ing star shells far more often than i'm used to see-ing it's normally so rare for me that i would wonder what on earth was going on when i saw one previuosly--

now i'm see-ing the Dd's fire star shells as a matter of course---

the detection meter will go red the DD will sit and listen for a while then fire a star shell over my approximaite position-- somtimes other DD's around the convoy will join in sometimes not-- so that's a nice addition to the night time atmosphere--they don't rush over to the area either they just fire the star shell and monitor the area-- unless i break from silent running of course and start waving at them -- in this set up a full red sub meter just means the DD's are on duty not that they know where you are--

[Col7777]

That's great info CB thanks, it answered all my questions.

[Redwine]

I am arriving to a aceptable balance but still having problems.


U-505 :

I can run U-505 modified now, starting in front of the battle group.

DDs still lethal, and very hard to shake off, they do not let me to approach to the carrier.

Detect me at 1/3 and above not at SR. Enough far to dont let me to aproach the carrier. When one of them detect me it call the others.
So hard to shake them, but finally after 3 decoys i can shake....... can i ?

One of them detect me when we was sacping so far, and the hunt start up a new time, he pick-up me and call the others.....all five over me a new time.

Hard to shake, but using decoys and silent running, was posible.
Long time to shake them, and with severe damage, hit 3 times by helgedogs, and evade some helgedog shots by lucky, and damaged 3 times by DC.

Hard but playable.


Happy Times :

This mission always was easy for me with my initial files and settings prior this job in this topic.

I dont like imposible missions, but dont like sitting duck hunt neither.

I start going back, to the incomming DDs, then i let them to see me, here one problem, they seems stupid in radar and sight vision.
So near, they shoot me by cannon, about 2200m.

Crash dive, and silent running, now pointing to the convoy.
The Flower corvette looks to agresive, the corvette and one DD, make about six runs over me drooping DCs.

I go into the convoy, go to periscope depth, look for the tankers and C2, sink many of them.

In this job, i was detected many times, shooted, depthcharged, and six ram attempts, only one cause damage.

Damaged 3 times by depth charges, and by only one ram action, severe damaged but repaired.

Run out of torps, run outside the convoy, and when they go far, rise periscope, i look a T2 smoking, surface the boat to reload and aproach the T2 at 2200m.

Here the interesting...........

The T2 detect me, look at my minisubit become red, i torp it and destroy, then go to the convoy a new time.

I dont know if the T2 call for help, or if the explosion call for them, but 2 DDs were incoming on me.

I submerge, and put silent running, looking by periscope, when click on the ship icon on the map, one of them has not active sonar, only pasive sensor.

May be by default, may be he loss it in a ramming action ?

They hunt on me, very hard, and very precise :hmm: , damaged two times more, i put the external camera and..... what ?

3 more ships incoming to the party circle arund me, they was incoming as in a train, one after the other as train cars.

But with my actual setting i was so quited at silent running, and mange to scape a little bit away, prior the 3 new ships arrive, if not sure i was done with 5 of them over me.

Finally i was safe just at midnight, 00:00.


Here my questions :

Who test on this mission ?

I have a problem with this mission...... DDs seems to not detect my periscope.

They only detect my scope visually and at very short range, and start to shoot it.

Their radar seems to dont works..... :hmm:

may be correct for that age ?

or i need to increase the radar sensivity or min surface ?

Some radars has min surface detection in 0.03 m2, but another has 1.5 m2, may be they are equiped with old radars and my scope surface exposed dont reach 1.5 m2 ?

Do you have the same beahvior in scope detection in this mission ?

[gouldjg]

Just a quickie

[Group 1.Unit 5]
Name=USS Jenks
Class=DEBuckley
Type=3 What is this for?? Different ships sometimes the same number type
Origin=American
Side=1
Commander=0
CargoExt=-1
CargoInt=-1
CfgDate=19430101
DeleteOnLastWaypoint=true
GameEntryDate=19440515
GameEntryTime=0
GameExitDate=19451231
GameExitTime=0
EvolveFromEntryDate=false
Long=-2316580.000000
Lat=2582330.000000
Height=0.000000
Heading=0.000000
Speed=10.000000
CrewRating=4
DelayMin=0
ReportPosMin=-1
ReportPosProbability=100
RandStartRadius=0.000000

[HEMISENT]

Originally Posted by Col7777

Another thing may be we are missing, we keep saying (ESCORTS) but do you think the type of DD also makes a difference, I'm thinking again what CB said, he got hounded by a corvette but the other DD seemed a bit docile, may be his equipment wasn't up to scratch, just a thought.

I just completed the Happy times mission round 2 using CB's setup this time as previously posted. I noticed two differences between the missions.
Obsevation #1;
Gouldjg's setup the Flower Corvette was reasonably aggresive while the Hunt Class Destroyer was only burning up fossil fuels/only 2 enemy ships participating. I felt very secure at evading with little or no damage at 160m
With CB's setup The Flower was extremely aggressive not exactly dropping pin point but very scarey nonetheless. The Hunt was not as aggressive but definately a player. Also at different times there were 3 enemy ships involved. I very much was in trouble hunted to 170m and looking for more depth.
Observation #2
Gouldjg's setup the stealth meter would flicker from green to dirty green when perhaps someone was getting a whiff. A lot of brown/red/brown as I evaded. My twisting and turning+on and off Silent Running actually seemed to have a benefit. I believed it definately had an effect on the way the AI hunted me.
CB's setup the stealth meter went solid red when the nearest DD approached from my 90deg just as I was setting up my shot. The exact distance was 1500m, I was at PD, 2 kts at SR. Stealth meter stayed solid red the entire time-no variation except a couple times the Flower passed directly over me. It went green for just a flicker then solid red. seemed about the angle directly down from his forward turret.

CB-Do you have any updated settings I can plug in.
Right now I think I kind of like certain aspects of both.

Where do I find the names/designations of the AI hydrophones and what years they came into use?

[Der Teddy Bar]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

What im saying there is im begining to think theres a fundamental difference in the Escort AI, depending on the paramters of the situation.

Yes that is correct, I quote an e-mail from earlier this year in April...

"However, there is currently indeed a limit to how many escorts will comit to a single contact... which will be addressed"

I do not know what addressed meant, as I never bothered to ask. It would be my assumption that this was not addressed.

Regarding the stock happy time escort, if they were any more retarded I swear they have a 'D' on their bow :rotfl: A poor mission to test on.

[gouldjg]

Originally Posted by HEMISENT

I just completed the Happy times mission round 2 using CB's setup this time as previously posted. I noticed two differences between the missions.
Obsevation #1;
Gouldjg's setup the Flower Corvette was reasonably aggresive while the Hunt Class Destroyer was only burning up fossil fuels/only 2 enemy ships participating. I felt very secure at evading with little or no damage at 160m
With CB's setup The Flower was extremely aggressive not exactly dropping pin point but very scarey nonetheless. The Hunt was not as aggressive but definately a player. Also at different times there were 3 enemy ships involved. I very much was in trouble hunted to 170m and looking for more depth.
Observation #2
Gouldjg's setup the stealth meter would flicker from green to dirty green when perhaps someone was getting a whiff. A lot of brown/red/brown as I evaded. My twisting and turning+on and off Silent Running actually seemed to have a benefit. I believed it definately had an effect on the way the AI hunted me.
CB's setup the stealth meter went solid red when the nearest DD approached from my 90deg just as I was setting up my shot. The exact distance was 1500m, I was at PD, 2 kts at SR. Stealth meter stayed solid red the entire time-no variation except a couple times the Flower passed directly over me. It went green for just a flicker then solid red. seemed about the angle directly down from his forward turret.

CB-Do you have any updated settings I can plug in.
Right now I think I kind of like certain aspects of both.

Where do I find the names/designations of the AI hydrophones and what years they came into use?

Absolutely,

My settings are at the moment, only really for passive approach to convoys.

It works as in if I was at PD and going flank, they would pick me up being silly.

I have not yet tried to deal with the DD's attacking me and ways of keeping them interested in me without being too uber.

What we need is ways to make other DD's behave as good as this persistant sod.

How??????

Der Teddy just mentioned a clue that this may have been known but maybe not addressed.

Guys, I am confident that could get the sensors to behave as we want, in any fashion etc. This part is all minor tweaking and when I come to do it, I am confident it does play as it should in game.

What I am more interested in now, is getting the ships to behave in their reactions to their sensors.

Some behave intelligent and some dumb,

Ok, we may be able to boost their sensors to make dumb ones appear to act clever and maybe this is going to be the best we get for a while.

Either way it is a improvement,

I think we need a little brain storming on DD's for a while, leaving sensors out of the picture but not dispelling with possible sensor cheats all the same.

I mean, If I have to, I will find the clever ones and then redo the whole convoy make up.

[CB..]

Originally Posted by HEMISENT

CB-Do you have any updated settings I can plug in.
Right now I think I kind of like certain aspects of both.

Where do I find the names/designations of the AI hydrophones and what years they came into use?

only changes i have made as i have gone along was to REDUCE all the NAMED hydrophone max distances by 4000 metres from their stock max distances --that's SUBTRACT 4000 metres off the stock max distances for the named hydrophones sensors

this with the ubered sim.cfg effect AND the huge minimum distance and max speedfactor at 0.5 knots--

that's it really-- with these dramatically reduced max ranges--you get a constant change in the detection meter changes colour pretty much all the time--and the DD's are very dangerous --

the constant effect of the DD's losing contact with you and other gaingin contact on you tends to perhaps by pass the limited number of escorts per contact-- in that it draws different groups of DD's into the area and once there they will start attacking -- shift work if you like--
last campaign patrol i got absolutely blanket bombed with 7 DD's all dropping DC's around me--- hugely dangerous and unpredictable--
but it was only as i drifted out the back of the convoy that i got nailed--

by that corvette and american DD combination-- i'd survived the main event and got killed by the trailer lol--

if you go to the data/SEA folder and look in the DD's folders at the SNS file it will list the sensors and show which sensor is used during which periods--

one trick would be to use the sensors from the uber american DD's for all the brit Dd's as well ( a simple notepad edit job) OR alternatively to just use the late war sensors for the whole war and see how that went for you-- have tried all of this before i must admit tho--

heres the fletchers sensor file

[Sensor 1]
NodeName=O01
LinkName=AI_Visual
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19451231

[Sensor 2]
NodeName=H01
LinkName=QCeP
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19430101

[Sensor 3]
NodeName=H01
LinkName=QClP
StartDate=19430101
EndDate=19451231

[Sensor 4]
NodeName=N01
LinkName=QCeA
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19430101

[Sensor 5]
NodeName=N01
LinkName=QClA
StartDate=19430101
EndDate=19451231

[Sensor 6]
NodeName=R01
LinkName=NULL
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19400101

[Sensor 7]
NodeName=R01
LinkName=TypeSC
StartDate=19400101
EndDate=19420601

[Sensor 8]
NodeName=R01
LinkName=TypeSG
StartDate=19420601
EndDate=19440101

[Sensor 9]
NodeName=R01
LinkName=TypeSS
StartDate=19440101
EndDate=19451231

[Sensor 10]
NodeName=D01
LinkName=NULL
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19451231

[Sensor 11]
NodeName=C01
LinkName=NULL
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19451231



/////////

you can see what to do--

[caspofungin]

i'm not sure what makes the us sensors so uber -- looking at the values in ai_sensors, they have less range (sonar/hydrophone) and more limited bearings, if i recall correctly.

can anone think of a way to make dd's only get bearing info from hydrophones?

[Der Teddy Bar]

Originally Posted by caspofungin

i'm not sure what makes the us sensors so uber -- looking at the values in ai_sensors, they have less range (sonar/hydrophone) and more limited bearings, if i recall correctly.

can anone think of a way to make dd's only get bearing info from hydrophones?

A stab in the dark, a wild guess, maybe it's using a different AI?