Destroyers Discussion (getting rid of pin point drops)

[Col7777]

@ gouldjg,

I am crap, I spend too much time tweaking, I should play a bit more.

[HEMISENT]

Just finished a test U 505 mission.
Changed everything per CB's settings
First, at mission start my boat is located approximately 4-500m off an escorts port bow. With raised scope at slow speed the escort is blind. As I continue to increase speed there is still no indication the escort knows I'm there. Finally, we are off his port side my boat is at flank speed and the sound meter begins to flicker The escort is pulling away rapidly. Absolutely nothing I did could get the DD's interested in me until I surfaced to get their attention and crash dived. Then all hell broke loose. The escort behavior appeared much more concentrated than previous missions. Using the sound meter(first time ever) it appears silent running really does have an effect. The green sub would flicker between green and orange constantly until they began pinging then solid red. The dc attacks were close enough to cause damage but not too uber. Finally worked my way down to 160m attempting to evade. Actually for about 15 minutes I was having a great time until 2 escort's collided. They continued welded together doing a couple of very wide 360's. From then on the remaining three escorts would make half hearted runs in my direction but would just lose interest.

Once the escorts collided there was no more pinging, no more hydrophone use from any of the remaining ships. The green sub icon stayed green from then on. Nothing I did could get the three remaining ships to actively search for me. Flank speed, reduce depth, ping for bottom half dozen times-nothing. Finally they all gave up and left.

Going back to an earlier conversation regarding a lead escort. is it possible that one of the crashed ships was the leader and with him occupied/out of the picture everyone else just shut down???

I guess now I try a campaign mission

[Ducimus]

Im trying to recap, abosrb and understand what CB's doing. The bold parts im wondering, "where did those come from and what do they do, and how much effect do they cause?"

Originally Posted by CB..

the entire set up is just

increasing the minimum ranges for all the hydrophones (including the generic A_hydrophone) to 1000

(all other AI_sensors.dat entrys as stock)

and this sim.cfg


[Mech]
Waves amplitude=0.4 ;[0,1]
Waves attenuation=0.02 ;>=0

[AI Cannons]
Max error angle=20 ;[deg]
Max fire range=5000 ;[m]
Max fire wait=22 ;[s]

[AI AA guns]
Max error angle=5 ;[deg]
Max fire range=1000 ;[m]
Max fire wait=7 ;[s]

[AI detection]
Lost contact time=6 ;[min]

[Visual]
Detection time=0.5 ;[s] min detection time.
Sensitivity=0.01 ;(0..1) at (sensitivity * max range) we have a double detection time.
Fog factor=0.3 ;[>=0]
Light factor=1.0 ;[>=0]
Waves factor=1.0 ;[>=0]
Enemy surface factor=400 ;[m2]
Enemy speed factor=15 ;[kt]

[Radar]
Detection time=1 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.03 ;(0..1)
Height factor=0 ;[m]
Waves factor=1.0 ;[>=0]
Enemy surface factor=3.0 ;[m2]

[Hydrophone]
range factor=1 ;[>=0]
fog factor=0 ;[>=0]
light factor=0 ;[>=0]
waves factor=0.2 ;[>=0]
speed factor=0.5 ;[>=0]
enemy speed=0 ;[>=0]
aspect=0 ;[>=0]
noise factor=0.5 ;[>=0]
sensor height factor=0 ;[>=0]
already tracking modifier=20 ;[detection probability modifier]
decay time=150 ;[>0] already tracking bonus decay, in seconds
uses crew efficiency=true ;[true or false]

[Sonar]
Detection time=5 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.03 ;(0..1)
Waves factor=0.50 ;[>=0]
Speed factor=10 ;[kt]
Enemy surface factor=200 ;[m2]
Lose time=2

Also as i understand it hes running active sonar at 100 meters to 1300 meters and passive from 1500 to, 6000?

Im wondering if that gap is whats causing the lack of pinging? My guess is the DD's have to have a passive contact before they start pinging.

Set me straight so i understand.

[HEMISENT]

Hiding in the wake of a merchant is what got me past Gibralter once and into the Med. Getting out was another story.

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by HEMISENT

Just finished a test U 505 mission.
Changed everything per CB's settings
First, at mission start my boat is located approximately 4-500m off an escorts port bow. With raised scope at slow speed the escort is blind. As I continue to increase speed there is still no indication the escort knows I'm there. Finally, we are off his port side my boat is at flank speed and the sound meter begins to flicker

I think so this behavior is due to Speed Factor value. :hmm:

If i dont remember bad, DDs are deaf above that speed, sensor dont works above the speedfactor speed.

And in the mission U-505, at sart up they are running at high speed. You need to trigger them with another warning as visual or radar.

If you look into the CB setting speed factor are under DDs initial DDs speeds at mission start up.


@ CB :

CB, are you sure about the speed factor you set at hydrophones....... ? :hmm:

It must to be in knots i think so. :hmm:

Originally Posted by CB..

[Hydrophone]
range factor=1 ;[>=0]
fog factor=0 ;[>=0]
light factor=0 ;[>=0]
waves factor=0.2 ;[>=0]
speed factor=0.5 ;[>=0]
enemy speed=0 ;[>=0]
aspect=0 ;[>=0]
noise factor=0.5 ;[>=0]
sensor height factor=0 ;[>=0]
already tracking modifier=20 ;[detection probability modifier]
decay time=150 ;[>0] already tracking bonus decay, in seconds
uses crew efficiency=true ;[true or false]

[Sonar]
Detection time=5 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.03 ;(0..1)
Waves factor=0.50 ;[>=0]
Speed factor=10 ;[kt]
Enemy surface factor=200 ;[m2]
Lose time=2

Please take a look.........

[gouldjg]

Guys I need help here

I have wrapped up a sample of what I have tweaked to date.

As you all know, I have tried to leave the sim.cfg alone barring some very minor changes here and there i.e. aspect etc.

Most of my changes has been in the sensors_dat and the fact I changed the crew to a single level 4.

Could some people please test this in game for the passive changes I have made and also try 505 mission for active behaviour and DD pin drop DC solution to date.

http://rapidshare.de/files/8512103/P...Tests.rar.html

Could you please also back up your single mission files and then change the crew to 4 for the missions you wish to check.


I am after evidence that this is not giving you the results it is giving me.

Bearing in mind that you need to be looking at DD's that move slower than 15 knts as is default in game.

At one point I thought things were wrong until I noticed some DD move faster so in effect cannot hear anyway.

Upto to now, I feel I am getting pretty much bang on results in the passive department but as always, new looks at it may uncover things I have overlooked. (The Creators Tunnel Vision)

I know one thing for sure, it is harder approaching convoys unless I planned carefully.

All critisism is welcome so dont feel like you do not want to throw spanners in the works. It is the spanners that turn us nuts to get a better grip.

Thanks all

[CB..]

don't shout at me but i have the basics for a purely personal set up (just for myself to finally get some game play out of this fabulous moving oil painting of a game--it really is like watching a brilliantly animated oil painting of the uboat war!!)

in order to check something out and test the sort of behaviuor i went back in and REDUCED all the hydrophone maximum distances by 4000 metres (yes i did say 4000 metres) leaving only the AI_Hydrophone max range at 8000 metres- the rest once edited were between 2500 metres and 4500 metres)

another campaign patrol--- eventually tracked down a convoy in heavy seas and fog-- much rain and lightning etc--

couldn't see a thing so was a bit hard to tell at what range i was detected-- but around 3 to 4000 metres out as i submerged (i was having trouble finding it lol) at silent running of course--- this time i went thru every possible shade of green and red on the little sub meter -- spooky disembodied searchlghts started appearing all around me--- the detection meter going thro colour changes about every 30 seconds--
the DD's did a good job keeping me on my toes but never really presnted any real threat--- might have been different in calmer seas daylight no fog etc etc--but not massively so compared to the previous test patrol where it was exactly that and the hydrophones all had stock max distances--

as i was playing it occured to me that this patrol was doing a good job of representing early war/happy times difficulty levels--without ever allowing me to become complacent-- the DD's were allways too close to allow that- and they were DC-ing all around me at one point-- give all these same DD's k-guns and i would have been in trouble--- give them all hedgehogs and it would have been seriously hazardous

as it was (1942) only the corvettes had k-guns and only one on each side-- the rest only had the normal dc racks--

if i checked which hydrophones were early war (easily done) and left those max ranges as i have just set them ( 4000 metres less max range than stock--plus of course the 1000 metres minimum range on all the phones right thru the war)

for the mid war hydrophones i could increase the max range slightly and let the k-guns take care of the rest of difficulty level--

and for the late war hydrophones i could use the slightly less than stock max ranges and the mutliple k-gun racks and hedghogs would make things appropiately nasty

all the time keeping the minimum ranges at 1000 metres or perhaps reducing this slightly for late war

the DD's in this patrol did use their sonar and were actively (exsuse the pun) pinging me from time to time--so folks were right about that

this is just what i have come up with using all the information we have been trying and testing so far-- more to come and better i'm positive--

im not going to release a mod that's not what i came here for--but there's enough here to create interesting gameplay from the start thru to the end of the campaign--

im sure this is most likely down to the uberised hydrophones due to the sim.cfg entrys as i have made the hydrophones far less effective than stock and we all know what they were like for me with the stock sim.cfg entrys--useless

reducing the max range is hardly going to make them more effective (?)
incresing the minimum range isn't going to make them more effective at long range (?) and that is ALL i've done--so it surely is down to the unothodox sim.cfg hydrophone entrys (and i have Col to thank for that one !! )

it may not be uber realistic but boy is it fun and VERY atmospheric--

and very simple to do aswell too--IF it works for every-one--IF it doesn't yikes then any set up isn't going to work for every-one so were still some way from solving that one--

i haven't even tried this set up in a single mission tho--it has to be said

i'd certainly propose this sort of edit if only on the grounds that it combines genuine challenge and fun..

it might actually be a good set up for multiplayer --theyre certainly not predictable--and do almost seem "human"


argghhh
SORRY G@ simulteaneous post-- extremely bad timing -- what i'm meaning to say is that it's a shame that the sim.cfg stuff is so incompatible with other approaches--may be if it does turn out in the end that their are two sets of people whose game suffers from different DD issues this is a way to deal with one of the problems

[gouldjg]

Guys I need help here

I have wrapped up a sample of what I have tweaked to date.

As you all know, I have tried to leave the sim.cfg alone barring some very minor changes here and there i.e. aspect etc.

Most of my changes has been in the sensors_dat and the fact I changed the crew to a single level 4.

Could some people please test this in game for the passive changes I have made and also try 505 mission for active behaviour and DD pin drop DC solution to date.

http://rapidshare.de/files/8512103/P...Tests.rar.html

Could you please also back up your single mission files and then change the crew to 4 for the missions you wish to check.


I am after evidence that this is not giving you the results it is giving me.

Bearing in mind that you need to be looking at DD's that move slower than 15 knts as is default in game.

At one point I thought things were wrong until I noticed some DD move faster so in effect cannot hear anyway.

Upto to now, I feel I am getting pretty much bang on results in the passive department but as always, new looks at it may uncover things I have overlooked. (The Creators Tunnel Vision)

I know one thing for sure, it is harder approaching convoys unless I planned carefully.

All critisism is welcome so dont feel like you do not want to throw spanners in the works. It is the spanners that turn us nuts to get a better grip.

Thanks all

[CB..]

Originally Posted by Redwine

@ CB :

CB, are you sure about the speed factor you set at hydrophones....... ? :hmm:

It must to be in knots i think so. :hmm:

Please take a look.........

yes it's a complete mystery to me that one -- i've sat and looked at it and it makes no sense at all- ( these settings are actually the same as the u-boat settings in the sensors.cfg)
why one earth having a speed factor of half a knot doesn't utterly cripple the DD's hydrophones i have no idea-- absolutely none--speed factor is used in the stock sim.cfg entrys and it works as normal there- so why does it work differently when used like this?
yup your right about the sonar speedfactor i could do with increasing that a little might be why they are so slow to ping me--

Also as i understand it hes running active sonar at 100 meters to 1300 meters and passive from 1500 to, 6000?

Hemisent ! the sonar is at stock settings and ranges-- and the hydrophones are at stock (or less if you want) max ranges and 1000 metres minimum ranges--

when i reduced the max ranges to 4000 metres LESS than stock ranges the DD's started using their sonar again--and were STILL able to find me and attack--i don't pretend to know exactly what's going on-- i haven't got it all under control--but that's ok by me! i don't want to have it all under control--got to be some surprises for me when i get in game--!!

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by CB..

when i reduced the max ranges to 4000 metres LESS than stock ranges the DD's started using their sonar again--and were STILL able to find me and attack--i don't pretend to know exactly what's going on-- i haven't got it all under control--but that's ok by me!

:hmm:

I think for my own game, im going to do this:

Sim.cfg
-waves 0.0 (hopefuly this will make it disregard the weather so i get some consistnat behavior to fine tune the noise factor)

- Noise factor somerehre in between 0.45 and 0.55 is my happy point. My goal is that within 3K of an escort, running at 1/3rd isnt a very good idea! Within 2K i'd better be silent. At 5 or 6K, if i crash dive after shooting,, everyones gonna hear it! I may ramp these figures up. I expect to be walking on eggshells when on the firing point.



Active sonar,
reduce min range to err... 150 to 200... damn hedge hogs!

Passive sonar,
Increase minimum range to about 700. Goal here is to make silent speed silent. WIth the sim.cfg adjustments an increase min radius is my ad hoc fix for that.

Hopefully that will work.

If i have problems with lack of active sonar pings, ill try reducing max passive to 4K, thanks for the tip !



@ gouldjg

I'll test it out for ya, but you just reminded me that i changed the starting position on my U505 mission and i forgot to back it up. DOH! Include your u505 mission and ill give it a go sometime this weekend hopefully.

[CB..]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

:hmm:

I think for my own game, im going to do this:

Sim.cfg
-waves 0.0 (hopefuly this will make it disregard the weather so i get some consistnat behavior to fine tune the noise factor)

- Noise factor somerehre in between 0.45 and 0.55 is my happy point. My goal is that within 3K of an escort, running at 1/3rd isnt a very good idea! Within 2K i'd better be silent. At 5 or 6K, if i crash dive after shooting,, everyones gonna hear it! I may ramp these figures up. I expect to be walking on eggshells when on the firing point.



Active sonar,
reduce min range to err... 150 to 200... damn hedge hogs!

Passive sonar,
Increase minimum range to about 700. Goal here is to make silent speed silent. WIth the sim.cfg adjustments an increase min radius is my ad hoc fix for that.

Hopefully that will work.

If i have problems with lack of active sonar pings, ill try reducing max passive to 4K, thanks for the tip !



@ gouldjg

I'll test it out for ya, but you just reminded me that i changed the starting position on my U505 mission and i forgot to back it up. DOH! Include your u505 mission and ill give it a go sometime this weekend hopefully.

if you really want to kill the waves factor remove the entry altogether
one thing that was very apparent on the last run and the previuos one allso- was that the red sub detection metre and the we have been detected message wasn't a true indication of wether a DD had "latched onto" you -- only implied that they knew you were "some-where" - perhaps merely an indication that some hydrophone operator on a Dd was talking to his CO saying " i think that might be a sub - sir what do you think?" - as it did not immediately result in a DD charging you down every time--often they would lose you again before confirming the contact

[gouldjg]

All my single missions with level 4 crew and default starting points.




http://rapidshare.de/files/8514676/English.rar.html

[HEMISENT]

Gouldjg
Just dl'd your test setup. I think I'll compare same scenarios between yours and CB's.

Redwine,
Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. The escorts are travelling so fast they're making too much noise...sometimes I can't see the forest because there's a bunch of trees in the way.

[Ducimus]

You know CB,

Honestly i dont want to remove the wave factor. I want a degree of ramdomness. I dont want to pop the scope, look at a DD and know exactly when he'll see me.

THeres three lines in your sim.cfg that i think are key. Well, its kinda of obvious with no other major changes to the wave/sound factor behind reducing them by half.

[Mech]
Waves amplitude=0.4 ;[0,1]
Waves attenuation=0.02 ;>=0

[Hydrophone]
aspect=0 ;[>=0]
already tracking modifier=20 ;[detection probability modifier]

Are these what give you all the nifty behavior from the DD?s?

I dont recall the [mech] section, was it always there?

Looks like its adjusting the variables which effect the wave factor. Sort of indirectly tinkering with the wave factr?

Aspect =0? Turning aspect angle off? If so i guess that would increase probably of detection greatly.

Already tracking modifer? whered this come from? and how do the values scale? In other words is 1 the lowest and 20 the highest or does it work the other way around?

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by CB..

yes it's a complete mystery to me that one -- i've sat and looked at it and it makes no sense at all- ( these settings are actually the same as the u-boat settings in the sensors.cfg)
why one earth having a speed factor of half a knot doesn't utterly cripple the DD's hydrophones i have no idea-- absolutely none--speed factor is used in the stock sim.cfg entrys and it works as normal there- so why does it work differently when used like this?
yup your right about the sonar speedfactor i could do with increasing that a little might be why they are so slow to ping me--

mmhh.... :hmm: , if i dont understand bad you, my english is not good, you says, this 0,5 value make non sense on the game.

But i remember in my test, DDs become deaf, (nerf ?) when above the speed set there.....

Why 0.5 doesnt make the same ?

May because it is a decimal value ? may be it must to be > than 1 ?

May be the game takes the 0 part of the number instead 0,5 ?

What happens if you put 1, or 2 ?

May be the game takes 0 zero, and it nule the entry ?

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I think for my own game, im going to do this:

Sim.cfg
-waves 0.0 (hopefuly this will make it disregard the weather so i get some consistnat behavior to fine tune the noise factor)

mmhh.... :hmm: hi Ducimus....

If i am not wrong...... when you aproach the wave factor value to zero, DDs become more deaf.....

If you want to make them more independent of weather conditions, i think so.... and may be wrong, but it think so you must to rise up the value to be near 1.0 ...... :hmm:

In Bisckmark mission with a low wave factor in example 0.1, DDs become deaf, and with a value of 0.8 they become more sesible.

Take a look.

Originally Posted by HEMISENT

Redwine,
Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. The escorts are travelling so fast they're making too much noise...sometimes I can't see the forest because there's a bunch of trees in the way.

I become crazy with that at early tests......., just try rising up the speed factor over DDs cruise speed at mission start up, put in example 30 knots, and they will detect you easy and quickly.....