Bit of help

[Beery]

Originally Posted by VonHelsching

If we exclude the XXI, which is mal-modeled...

People say the Type XXI is mal-modelled, but I'm not so sure. Personally, I don't know why so many people make a lot of fuss about the Type XXI battery anyway. In some respects the XXI battery works more like a real battery than the batteries on the other boats - no battery on earth recharges to 100% capacity, so if anything it's the other boats we should be looking at, to make them charge more realistically. Also, it works PRECISELY to the specifications cited on Uboat.net in that it It takes the boat 3-5 hours to charge the batteries with the Schnorchel to enable the boat to travel on electric power for 2-3 days if travelling at moderate 4-8 knots. That's what uboat.net says the Type XXI did, and that's what SH3's Type XXI does (I know this because I tested it when people came to me, months ago, moaning about it). Sure, it only ever shows a 90% charge, but if it does what Uboat.net says it should do, so what? Finally, the Type XXI never fired a shot in anger, so I can't see why any true simulation enthusiast should really care how it performs. For all intents and purposes, in terms of a combat simulation, it's a pure fantasy boat.

To me this has always been a mildly annoying issue that should be a non-issue. The Type XXI, much like the Type VIIC/42, is a fantasy boat loved by arcade fans who want to command an uber-boat in WW2, but this sim is not called 'Secret Weapons of the Kriegsmarine', and the 'U' in U-boat stands for 'Untersee', not 'Uber'.

This issue comes up perennially, some people get all hot and bothered about it and, in my opinion at least, it just doesn't matter.

[Salvadoreno]

Originally Posted by Beery

Personally, I don't know why so many people make a lot of fuss about the Type XXI battery. In some respects the XXI battery works more like a real battery than the batteries on the other boats - no battery on earth recharges to 100% capacity, so if anything it's the other boats we should be looking at, to make them charge more realistically. Also, it works PRECISELY to the specifications cited on Uboat.net in that it It takes the boat 3-5 hours to charge the batteries with the Schnorchel to enable the boat to travel on electric power for 2-3 days if travelling at moderate 4-8 knots. That's what uboat.net says the Type XXI did, and that's what SH3's Type XXI does (I know this because I tested it when people came to me, months ago, moaning about it). Sure, it only ever shows a 90% charge, but if it does what Uboat.net says it should do, so what? Finally, the Type XXI never fired a shot in anger, so I can't see why any true simulation enthusiast should really care how it performs. For all intents and purposes, in terms of a combat simulation, it's a pure fantasy boat.

To me this has always been a mildly annoying issue that should be a non-issue. The Type XXI, much like the Type VIIC/42, is a fantasy boat loved by arcade fans who want to command an uber-boat in WW2, but this sim is not called 'Secret Weapons of the Kriegsmarine', and the 'U' in U-boat stands for 'Untersee', not 'Uber'.

This issue comes up perennially, some people get all hot and bothered about it, and IT DOESN'T MATTER! If folks want an uber fantasy boat, they should just change the range and speed settings to suit what they want from it. There are some folks out there who want to spend time lobbying for mod-makers to spend time on this nonsense. Personally, I think the time can be much better-spent making truly significant changes in the sim.

Hey Beery while i really did love your RUb 1.45, i find it offensive to the NYGM and GW modders when u say RUb 1.45 is more realistic and such to these other obviously superior mods. I know i don't really deserve to say much since i have contributed NOTHING to the community, but the NYGM TW mod adds sOO much more to Rub1.45 in terms of realism. The entire written Mediteranean campaign is the reason why i love the mod so much. I want to add GW campaign files to as well as graphics and habor traffic, but all my attempts have been futile and my game ends up crashing. So my setup consists of just
Nygm TW
Sink them all V2.2
Numerous graphics mods

But i cannot wait until they fully integrate these two mods without it being so confusing. The brilliantly written Mediteranean campaign alone is enough to blow RUB 1.45 out of the water (no offense) and the Ship damage models/DG-AA models/Damage models/and Aircraft behavior/ is something RUb 1.45 did not even touch. Your a brilliant modder Beery, i enjoyed your mods, but you didn't even try these mods and you had something to say about them. I believe thats why CdreGibbs answered the way he did. I do look foward to your new mod, but your problem with "milkcow" seems exagerratted and the milkcow problem is very miniscule. You dont even have to use it! I for one find it very immersive to know that these U-tankers are even out there, and i have never used em but my gameplay has not suffered!

I apologize ahead of time if you find this offensive. Oh by the way. GLAD YOUR BACK! lol. I hope you can bring your brilliant modding mind into the other projects or create another RUb for todays realism gammers!

[Beery]

Originally Posted by Salvadoreno

Hey Beery while i really did love your RUb 1.45, i find it offensive to the NYGM and GW modders when u say RUb 1.45 is more realistic and such to these other obviously superior mods.

When accusing me of saying something, please do me the courtesy of quoting the specific sentence you take issue with and its context. Otherwise it looks like trolling (especially since the bit you did quote has nothing at all to do with your argument). I've explained the reasons for my opinions on both NYGM and GW, and whatever your opinion might be, I won't apologise for having my own opinion.

For those folks who haven't read the post he's referring to, I'll clarify:

I said that NYGM was less realistic than RUb only because it carries a mod which is unfinished (the Milk Cow mod) and which causes significant realism problems. True, you don't 'have' to use it, but it's there nonetheless, and some people may be led to believe that it is realistic to have what amounts to a dry dock in mid-ocean. I also said that in ALL other respects, NYGM was probably SUPERIOR to, and MORE realistic than, RUb.

As for the GW mod, I said that GW was less realistic because I'm led to understand that the GW mod is supposed to give players a balance between realism and playability - this is how it's marketed. As such it can't possibly be as realistic as RUb or NYGM. Realism isn't its primary focus. As for it being inferior, the person who started that specific thread was asking for 'the most realistic' mod. In that context, GW is inferior to RUb and NYGM. If the context related to playability, GW might indeed be superior, but that wasn't the context of that thread.

[Txema]

Beery,

First of all I want to say that you did an excellent work on RuB 1.45. Actually it has been used as the base to build the other major mods available. Excellent work !!!

However I can not uderstand why you oppose so much to the Milk Cow implementation used in NYGM TW mod. It is not fully realistic, that´s right, but the other solution (increasing the fuel available in a submarine to simulate that it will be *probably* replenished in the future by a Milk Cow) is at least as unrealistic as the solution implemented by NYGM TW mod. Because in this way the submarine has the extra fuel without having to go to a specific location to meet the Milk Cow. So, in my opinion, both solutions are better than the stock game (where you get no extra fuel or torpedoes), but both solutions have realism issues. Taking all of this into account, I prefer the NYGM TW solution because it is much more inmersive while it is not more unrealistic than the other solution... Don´t you think so??

NYGM TW team: please, keep the Milk Cows in your mod. Although they are not the perfect solution, they are the best solution available within the limitations of the SH3 engine.


Txema

[Beery]

Originally Posted by Txema

...However I can not uderstand why you oppose so much to the Milk Cow implementation used in NYGM TW mod. It is not fully realistic, that´s right, but the other solution (increasing the fuel available in a submarine to simulate that it will be *probably* replenished in the future by a Milk Cow) is at least as unrealistic as the solution implemented by NYGM TW mod.

Mine is an abstraction, true. And the Milk Cow mod in NYGM is less abstract, BUT the flaw is not in terms of abstraction, as is the case with the SH3 Commander/RUb mod - the flaw is a big non-abstract dry dock in mid-Atlantic. I don't see that as being more realistic than my solution. Others may disagree with me.

Because in this way the submarine has the extra fuel without having to go to a specific location to meet the Milk Cow.

The Milk Cows were placed along the standard routes that the U-boats used. It's not as if U-boats had to go way out of their way to get to a Milk Cow. After all, that would defeat the purpose.

Anyway, if people want to use the Milk Cow mod, I'm not stopping them, and I'm certainly not lobbying for the NYGM mod to abandon it. All I'm saying is that I don't think it's as realistic as my solution. After all, the Milk Cow mod was one of the mods I was interested in for use in RUb. It was freely available, but I chose not to use it because of its problems. It's not like I'm suddenly coming out against it, and it's certainly not like I have some prejudice against it or its maker - it was a great effort to build a positive feature, but in my opinion the game's restrictions wouldn't allow it to work properly. It's just that I always felt it was flawed because of the repair issue. I felt that way six months ago and I feel the same way today. It's no one's fault that it didn't quite work out. Like I said before, it was a good effort, but sometimes things don't quite work. Some folks feel it works well enough for them. I'm just not one of them.

Originally Posted by Beery

As for the GW mod, I said that GW was less realistic because I'm led to understand that the GW mod is supposed to give players a balance between realism and playability - this is how it's marketed. As such it can't possibly be as realistic as RUb or NYGM. Realism isn't its primary focus. As for it being inferior, the person who started that specific thread was asking for 'the most realistic' mod. In that context, GW is inferior to RUb and NYGM. If the context related to playability, GW might indeed be superior, but that wasn't the context of that thread.

Thats why I suggested the install version I gave him. If installed in that order he will get the most realistic CURRENT version of SH3 that I believe is possible.

SHIII <-- Base game (of course)
1.4b Patch <-- needed for many reasons as we know
GW <-- Adds more content than god
GW 1.1 patch <-- Still adds more content than god
NYGM <-- adds the first element of base REALISIM (has RUB built in AFAIK)
NYGM Unified GW campain. <-- adds content and REALISIM
DG-AA_Destabilized_v1.02 <-- fix's a REALISIM issue between GW and NYGM (but not required if ppl so desire)

So why cant he have both, no reason at all, or are you implying that to be a realisim player 1 must forgo extra content ?? As I said that would give him the level of realisim he was after and a BIG boost to game content (eye candy, medium realisim boost an so forth). Just because some1 wants to head down the realisim path does not mean that they cant have a version of SH3 with all the bells an whistles on. Since all the realisim bits are installed last He gets as hardcore realisim as it can be. So where is the problem?


Oh and since NYGM has RUB built in (modified I admit) why limit him to just RUB. Therefore, I still believe that with the above mods RUB is indeed outdated AT THE MOMENT. Now its up to you to surpass all the above. Good luck.

PS: just a suggestion, if you do another RUB, make it as seemless with the above mentioned mods as much as possible, because ppl will only ask you, a)is it compatible with XXXX, b)can you combine with XXXX.

[VonHelsching]

Originally Posted by Beery

To me this has always been a mildly annoying issue that should be a non-issue. The Type XXI, much like the Type VIIC/42, is a fantasy boat loved by arcade fans who want to command an uber-boat in WW2, but this sim is not called 'Secret Weapons of the Kriegsmarine', and the 'U' in U-boat stands for 'Untersee', not 'Uber'.

This issue comes up perennially, some people get all hot and bothered about it and, in my opinion at least, it just doesn't matter.

Hi Beery,

I understand your view. I also understand why you limited some choices in RuB. Since as you say this issue comes always up, there must be a reason, which you may not realise.

I'm the definition of a "gamey" player / XXI fanboy and I enjoyed playing the stock game plus HT for many months until moving to GW. And also I seldom play alone. Usually I'm just the helmsman. My 6yo son is the Kaleun who decides where to head and which port to raid.

I'm afraid it was an issue for me (until I made the fix using a concept by Ducimus). The issue form me was neither the recharge time nor anything else, but the fact that I had to manually switch off the recharging mode to get full speed. It was an irritating "feature" that ruined my gameplay.

I am also afraid that SH3 is also (at least partially) "The sectret weapons of the Kriegsmarine", since VIIC/42 and XXI *were* included in the game. This is not a sin; "thou shal not use VIIC/42s".

It's a good thing to have choices. With a broad range choices you get more people buying the game. A lot of them enjoy gameplay / eye candy, like me. In fact I have the gut feeling that they must be the silent lurking majority in this forum.

Look what happened with Grey Wolves (which is way more "real" than the stock game, BTW). You must have been away for some time, but there was a recent flood of new people getting / returning into the game a year *after* it was released. Hell, some guy even posted an Alternative Timeline Mod, which I installed and it is great work!

This post is not intended to start an argument. Just to help you realise why other people have different views.

Best,

VonHelsching

[Beery]

Originally Posted by VonHelsching

The issue form me was neither the recharge time nor anything else, but the fact that I had to manually switch off the recharging mode to get full speed. It was an irritating "feature" that ruined my gameplay.

There is that. However, I must admit that, for someone like me who has never once taken out a Type XXI on a career patrol, the problem doesn't come up.

I am also afraid that SH3 is also (at least partially) "The sectret weapons of the Kriegsmarine", since VIIC/42 and XXI *were* included in the game. This is not a sin; "thou shal not use VIIC/42s".

Opinion is divided on the subject. In my opinion it's a mortal sin. I mean what feature did they skimp on or miss out entirely in order to put two U-boats in the game that never participated in the war? Did we miss out on wolfpacks because of it? I doubt that many people would say that the Type VIIC/42 and the Type XXI are more important than wolfpacks, or even Milk Cows.

I realise that different people have different views, and I know why they hold those views. All I'm doing is posting my own views and letting people know why I hold them.

People also have to realise and accept that I'm not always going to agree with them. I am allowed to disagree. In fact, that's what forums are all about. If we all agreed there wouldn't be anything to discuss. If I want universal agreement, sycophancy and fanboyism I can go to the IL-2 forums and listen to everyone there raving about how great the game is and how Oleg Maddox is God. I guess to some that's real entertainment, but I prefer a bit of disagreement, reasoned argument and critical thinking. That's why I like these forums.

[Tonnage_Ace]

Good post, Beery made. Oleg Maddox reference lol.

I've been torn between acquiring the VIIC/42 or the XXI, simply because both subs are released at around the same time, unless some lucky fool has 30,000 renown for the XXI and 3000+ renown for the VIIC/42, plus upgrades, in which case he can simply captain both before the end of the war. I've got GW 1.1 as well as Unified Campaign, but I can't see any good argument to settle for the VIIC/42, over the XXI. I don't believe the VIIC/42 can dive to 350m and survive, contrary to what the manual says, although I haven't tried out the VICC/42 with GW's yet so I can't be sure what changes have been made. I think passive acoustic equipment on board allied ships had a limit of 300m in which case, the VIIC/42 would be beneficial.

Has anyone used a VICC/42 with great success? Love to hear how.

[Beery]

Originally Posted by Tonnage_Ace

I've been torn between acquiring the VIIC/42 or the XXI...

Take the XXI. At least 118 Type XXIs were actually built. No Type VIIC/42 was ever built.

[VonHelsching]

Originally Posted by Beery

I am allowed to disagree. In fact, that's what forums are all about. If we all agreed there wouldn't be anything to discuss.

I'll have to agree to that! Hell, I'll even drink to that

OT:
I have an English friend. Last year we stayed in his house I told him:
Roger, you have excellent scenery and countryside; but the weather is terrible.

He answered: If there wasn't for the weather, we Brittish wouldn't talk to each other!

[VonHelsching]

Originally Posted by Observer

I'm not trying to be argumentative (or mean), I'm just trying to point out why reduced ranges in the battery fix mod are not realistic from a technical standpoint. I probably should have commented on this earlier, but I had hoped for a response from the developers to provide some additional support for my conclusions.

Not at all, Observer! Your comments were accurate and very constructive

I understand your point. Regarding the use of basic.cfg as opposed to the .sim files you are technically correct, but difficult for handling as a mod, if you know what I mean.

Well, I'll have to disagree with you about at which point the battery is considered empty. I say when "empty" and you say "when at 10%". From my point of view it actually doesn't matter. It's just a game.

It doesn't matter if you didn't post earlier about this. Better late than never...Which reminds me; do you happen to have *any* kind of data about this:

http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=51707

I'm sure you'll bring up something... My research was a faliure.

[Beery]

Originally Posted by VonHelsching

I have an English friend. Last year we stayed in his house I told him:
Roger, you have excellent scenery and countryside; but the weather is terrible.

He answered: If there wasn't for the weather, we Brittish wouldn't talk to each other!

Not only that, but if it wasn't for the foul weather, the countryside wouldn't be so beautiful when it's sunny. I've visited twenty or thirty countries, and I've lived in three, but I've never seen anything to match the English countryside in summer.

[JScones]

Originally Posted by Beery

...but I've never seen anything to match the English countryside in summer.

Yeah, it's pretty terrible isn't it. I can't think of anything as bad either - although I think I saw a VIIC skin here somewhere just as grey and dirty with a touch of yellow. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

JUST JOKES GUYS!!! South England looks great in Summer.

Seriously, nothing's better than Australia in Summer...or Canberra in Autumn for that matter. "Where the bloody hell are you?"

[JCWolf]

Originally Posted by JScones

Yeah, it's pretty terrible isn't it. I can't think of anything as bad either - although I think I saw a VIIC skin here somewhere just as grey and dirty with a touch of yellow. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

JUST JOKES GUYS!!! South England looks great in Summer.

Seriously, nothing's better than Australia in Summer...or Canberra in Autumn for that matter. "Where the bloody hell are you?"

Sidney, that will be mi next stop, soon...

PS: what have i done to deserve an Avatar like this!!! :rotfl: :rotfl: