Destroyers Discussion (getting rid of pin point drops)

[CB..]

simulataeneous post Red!! many thanks for the compliments!!!
your work was just as immersive!! thanks again

perhaps it is the AI rather than the sensor i wonder :hmm:

[Marhkimov]

Well, considering the fact that the DDs in SH3 sometimes work and sometimes they don't, that seems realistic to me. In real life, they didn't have a sub-hunting handbook that told them what tactics to use... Ok, so they probably did, but it's not like every time they would follow the same boring patterns.

Think hypothetical situation in SH3. Let's say that there are three DDs protecting a convoy and you manage to sink one of the cargo ships. Isn't it conceivable that only one of the DDs might decide to hunt for you, while the other two continue to sail on? Likewise, isn't it also conceivable that all three DDs might hunt for you? Who knows, maybe even none of the DDs might decide to hunt for you. Well, just like in real life, anything is possible.


But onto the point of uber DD detection, yes they are crazy good most of the time. Once they find me, usually I'm locked and as good as dead.

CB brings up an intersting point by saying that we could up the effectiveness of sonar coating. Even if it doesn't work, I like the idea because it is "out of the box." We should find some more "out of the box" ideas.

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by CB..

simulataeneous post Red!! many thanks for the compliments!!!
your work was just as immersive!! thanks again

perhaps it is the AI rather than the sensor i wonder :hmm:

I think so you are right, i reduce all beams ticknes, and they still looking me with the underkeel camera ....... they still detecting my full rudder turn even when they are passing over me... i cant undestand there is a sailor with the head into the water

[Marhkimov]

Originally Posted by Redwine

i cant undestand there is a sailor with the head into the water

Go in scene.dat and make the water more murky. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[caspofungin]

quick question -- irl sonar had a blind spot 200-300 yds out from dd due to beam geometry +/- electronics shortcomings ie too short a return time to accurately gauge distance.

was there a similar "dead zone" for hydrophones?

[caspofungin]

here's some more info re hydrophones:

"ADM 219/563, Theoretical U/Boat listening ranges. This report was published by the US Navy's 10th Fleet ASW OR Group on 20 Aug 1943. Neglecting reflection and reflection of sound, and considering attenuation only, the distances at which a U-boat could detect the hydrophone effect (HE) for the noise output from a 50-ship convoy, or detect pings from a 40-watt QC projector, are given, in yards, as:

Water noise level-----Hydrophone Effect-----Intercepting pings
High---------------------------7,000----------------------19,000
Medium---------------------21,000-----------------------25,000
Low--------------------------31,000-----------------------27,000

These figures are viewed as reasonable, as U-boat survivor reports claim ranges of 10-15 miles, and in one case 20 miles.
Using sound intensities typical for US submarines, the following distances in yards at which an escort can hear a U-boat travelling at different speeds are calculated using similar assumptions:
Water--------------------Surfaced--------------------Submerged
Noise----------------7kt---14kt---17kt---------------4kt---6kt
High-----------------50---500---600------------------50---750
Medium-----------260---1800---2100--------------260---2500
Low---------------430---2500---2900----------------430---3300

It is assumed that the listening is non-directional and that the ASW vessel is noiseless. It is further assumed that these unrealistic assumptions will probably cancel each other out in practice."

The above is from
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache...n&client=opera

which also has interesting info re number of torps needed to sink a ship, but that's a different discussion.

check the last table, the bold number -- that's surprisingly low range for a sub at (i assume) silent running. is that reflected in sh3?

also QCL, QCE, QGA are American active sonar systems.

[Reece]

Keep going & don't give up! this is one area in SH3 I would love to see fixed I play coop game on net & in 1943 the DD's are easy to avoid but in 1939 they pick me up while silent running 1km away drop DC's with pin point accuracy & you cannot escape, this is with destroyer intellegence set to minimum! and game play easy
Should be the other way around.
Just a thought that maybe a number of settings could be made and then incorporated into SH3 Commander, though this will not fix single missions or net play.

[caspofungin]

i'm about to put my fist thru my lcd...

using minitweaker to alter ai_sensors, set minimal settings for all hydrophones and active sonars, made a single mission viic vs 2 black swans. even w/ their sensors nerfed, i'm still getting picked up, sound meter red, pin point drops.

any other files we know of that affect enemy sensors?

[Marhkimov]

You mean you nerfed them 100% and they still found you?

[caspofungin]

min range 0, max range 10, min elevation 0, max elevation -10 for all hydrophones, sonars, ai_hydrophone, and ai_sonar. set visual and radar elevations 0-90 (from 180.)

and yes, they still f'ing found me. i was getting pinged, had the red warning sihouette, etc. then got creamed by dcs.

[Marhkimov]

Try data\cfg\sim.cfg

[Redwine]

Hi guy, i still making changes in the AI_Sensors.dat.

I arrive to a point where DDs become a little bit unskill., then i attempt to rise up their skill a new time.

I arrive to this file, wich one let them to detect me but not so lucky as before.

In silent running and beloww 2 knots i am near to undetected.

It was near to real i think so, a submerged sub at silent speeds was very hard to detect even at later war times.

Of course at 70m and 2 knots you can not sink any ship, you are enforced to go to periscope depth and increase speed to maneuver, putting your sub under risk.

At one third, they can hear me.

And if they catch me with the active sonar, they start up to prey on me, but now is a little bit more easy to shake them away.

I have not the problem described by CB, they droops the depth charges, before to arrive over me and pasing over me.

Before, they can easy detect me so they always attack me from my back and along the sub, now is not so easy for them to detect me and when circling, they was enforced to attack from my sides too.

Here the last moded file

http://rapidshare.de/files/7978445/AI_Sensors.zip.html

Tested on U-505 and Barhan stock missions


@ CB :

Hi, CB, may be due to the files and mods you are using, but i have not the same behavior than you, DDs do not droops DC just over me, they start up launching then so before me, and passing over me, and after me.

If you want i can send you my files.

[caspofungin]

i must be doing something wrong...

1. did you change sim.cfg at all?
2. noticed you've given active sonars a narrow beam -- does this affect them finding you at depth?

[CB..]

Originally Posted by Redwine

@ CB :

Hi, CB, may be due to the files and mods you are using, but i have not the same behavior than you, DDs do not droops DC just over me, they start up launching then so before me, and passing over me, and after me.

If you want i can send you my files.

many thanks for the offer Red!

i'm kinda getting closer as i keep tinkering around with the files and settings so i'll stay with the ones i've got so far- it's part of the fun sometimes to work away on this stuff
last night i was sunk by a lone brit twin stacker after a prolonged attack by 6 DD's- the twin stacker finaly was the only DD that persisted in the attack - the others had returned to the convoy - and eventually it got me (i couldn't shake it no matter what i did) so i'll have a look in the museum to see which DD that was and check it's sensors against the other escorts to see if that one has different sensors etc -

i didn't manage to sink any merchants - torped 4 of them but none sanke and the dd's kept me down long enough for me not to have a chance to finish them off - so it was quite a lively encounter which is what is needed--
i slightly increased the explosive range of the dc's to compensate for the mis timed drops

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by caspofungin

i must be doing something wrong...

1. did you change sim.cfg at all?
2. noticed you've given active sonars a narrow beam -- does this affect them finding you at depth?

1]
No changes at sim.cfg yet, only test and error on AI_Sensors.dat

2]
That is my objective, i am looking to kill their ability to look me with an underkeel video camera when passing over me.
May be my bad english, but dont made them more narrow, i made them more "slender" in vertical angle.
If you look the values, in game values are more than 3 times biggers than in real life.
My objective was to have a shadow zone when they are just over me, now DDs are able to detect me so good when are just over me, and are capable to detect my full rudder turns inmediatelly, and they follows my turns instantaneously. Not real.

Any way with those changes they do not loss too much skill, but i can note a change in their attack behavior.

Just test and comment, it is not a mod is oly test, most opinions we have better can do it.

Originally Posted by CB..

many thanks for the offer Red!

i'm kinda getting closer as i keep tinkering around with the files and settings so i'll stay with the ones i've got so far- it's part of the fun sometimes to work away on this stuff
last night i was sunk by a lone brit twin stacker after a prolonged attack by 6 DD's- the twin stacker finaly was the only DD that persisted in the attack - the others had returned to the convoy - and eventually it got me (i couldn't shake it no matter what i did) so i'll have a look in the museum to see which DD that was and check it's sensors against the other escorts to see if that one has different sensors etc -

i didn't manage to sink any merchants - torped 4 of them but none sanke and the dd's kept me down long enough for me not to have a chance to finish them off - so it was quite a lively encounter which is what is needed--
i slightly increased the explosive range of the dc's to compensate for the mis timed drops

Good, sincerelly i want to reproduce the behavior you had reahced with your mod in SH2........ you are an Ancient Master.

Your behavior sounds good, normally if i dont do any stupid thing, i can shake them, even with the original AI-Sensors from Jungsman.

With this last file it is a little bit more easy to shake them, but always enforced to be submerged deep and running so slow (2knts) and silent, if not, even at one third, they catch you.


The only thing i capture my atention is why you have that behavior in depth charges drooping, in my files they droops the dc so good before me, over me and after me.....