The Scottish Independence thread - Yay or Nay?

[Tango589]

If bonnie Scotland does go it's own way, does that mean passports and inoculations will be necessary to visit?

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Tango589

If bonnie Scotland does go it's own way, does that mean passports and inoculations will be necessary to visit?

Probably gain entry at the frontier by passing over a bottle of whiskey

Just think of the employment that would be created if we were to ebuild Hadrians Wall

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Probably gain entry at the frontier by passing over a bottle of whiskey

Maybe a cattle grid ?

Just think of the employment that would be created if we were to rebuild Hadrians Wall

[Tango589]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Probably gain entry at the frontier by passing over a bottle of whiskey

Just think of the employment that would be created if we were to ebuild Hadrians Wall

Once Hadrians wall was built, within 20 mins the north side would have cladding on it and the south side would have a long row of conservatorys built against it!

[MGR1]

All joking aside, the independence and devolution debate needs to be broadened to include the entirety of the UK.

The Union that Jim defends is no longer the same as the one prior to 1999. Whereas before everything was centralised at Westminster, now Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast are home to devolved assemblies. In the case of the latter, it's probably the only way that the Northern Ireland pressure cooker can let of steam without an excessive amount of violence. The Labour Party in the person of the late Donald Dewar is responsible for Holyrood and since the other non-English parts of the UK were getting something, so did Wales....

The Union must evolve as the current setup is, IMHO, grossly unfair on England - as I've said before and will continue to do so, non-English MP's can vote on English matters that their English colleagues can't do in return. The West Lothian Question has to be resolved one way or the other, as does the Barnett Formula. Putting voting restrictions of non-English MP's at Westminster strikes me as little more than a half-way house.

Scotland only has a population of 5 million or so, of course it's going to cost more to provide services as there isn't the economy of scale that there is in England. The various party's mania for the "low skill, low wage" model of economic management continually cripples the ability to generate enough taxation revenue to cover Government spending. That applies to whole of the UK, not just Scotland. After all, whereas the UK average wage is roughly £26,500, in Scotland it's only £20,862 (approx). That contrast should make the most ardent of pro-independence supporters pause, assuming it can get past their blinkers! There have been some rumbles in Holyrood about adopting the "Scandinavian Model" of "high-skill, high-wage", but that needs more investment in education and won't be an immediate panacea. Assuming someone has the balls to actually try it!

What does baffle me is the seeming unwillingness of England to demand it's own devolved Parliament. The referendum in 2004 about devolution for the North East of England foundered - why? Fear of too many politicians, inter regional rivalry, fears that it would cost too much? I do wonder if the English sense of identity is so joined to being British that the two are one and the same, whereas elseware there is a subtle distinction.

Mike.

[Platapus]

How about Scotland secedes from the UK, and becomes the 51st state of the US? That way we can really piss off Puerto Rico.

A win win for every one.

[Tango589]

Originally Posted by MGR1

I do wonder if the English sense of identity is so joined to being British that the two are one and the same, whereas elseware there is a subtle distinction.

I feel there is more than a grain of truth in what you say. Personally I do use the 2 interchangably, even if I am 1/2 Irish by descent!

[Penguin]

Yay from me (sorry British mates!), because I'm a shallow person and I find Cat Boyd extremely hot!
On a serious note: I can pretty much sympathize with the positions of the RIC. I would love to see trying out an alternative to the current economic system, which is is prevailant in anglo-saxon countries, especially with its strong emphasis on the financial sector and its tendency to sacrifice all social achievements to some shareholder value.

I also believe that a working democratic system has to be down-to-top, so I am a big fan of smaller entities deciding their fate on their own, rather than having a centralistic system.

As a leftie, the first article from The Scotsman curbed my hopes a little.

In the German media, the positions of the RIC or the SSP are seldom mentioned, it's painted as if it's only the SNP which roots for independence. However from my understanding, Scotish nationalism differs greatly from other nation's nationalism, it looks like it includes less xenophobic components.

Since we're on a military-dominated website, another question comes to my mind. I haven't read too much about how the military should be organized, as many British units are tradionally Scottish dominated (don't know if there are still regiments which are solely made up of Scots). A joint-venture in this sector would certainly make sense - of course with veto powers when London decides to take part in another senseless oversea adventure.

Originally Posted by August

My opinion on Scottish independence is that as an American it's none of my business.

Well, coming from a nation which has some experience about the necessity to dissolve political bands, you certainly can voice an opinion.

Especially as MGM did a very good job by posting some reading material to get a grasp of the issue and thus trying to enable an informed discussion.
I think this is an issue which has been discussed in America since even before the foundation of US, and still is a relevant topic today: the question of the rights and powers of smaller entities versus central power, aka state rights vs federal rights.

[August]

Originally Posted by Penguin

Well, coming from a nation which has some experience about the necessity to dissolve political bands, you certainly can voice an opinion.

I do hear what you're saying but when you look at it our national experiences are quite different in some very fundamental ways. The biggest one being that Scotland isn't located 3000 miles away from England on the other side of an ocean that, at the time, took a month to get across.

Especially as MGM did a very good job by posting some reading material to get a grasp of the issue and thus trying to enable an informed discussion.
I think this is an issue which has been discussed in America since even before the foundation of US, and still is a relevant topic today: the question of the rights and powers of smaller entities versus central power, aka state rights vs federal rights.

That's another big difference to consider. We weren't a smaller entity, we were a lot bigger and far more ethnically diverse.

I guess it's that I feel this is a decision that the British will have to work out amongst themselves and all us foreigners can really contribute is noise that will tend to muddy things up more than help.

Besides I don't want them bitching that we gave them bad advice! If they screw this up it should be totally on them.

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by August

I do hear what you're saying but when you look at it our national experiences are quite different in some very fundamental ways. The biggest one being that Scotland isn't located 3000 miles away from England on the other side of an ocean that, at the time, took a month to get across.

Good point, but 1812 they were a lot closer. Or when Texas declared independence, with the ruling country just across the river.

Originally Posted by August

That's another big difference to consider. We weren't a smaller entity, we were a lot bigger and far more ethnically diverse.

Oh, this referred just to domestic US politics, down to the county level. For example I fappreciate that you guys can vote for your local sherrif/police chief, or the existance of referendums on a local/state level.
You can compare the US discussion with the discussion about the EU here in Europe, just exchange DC with Brussels. As Germany also has a federal structure, this might explain why we are more wary of a centralized power than e.g. the French, who are traditionally ruled from Paris.

Originally Posted by August

Besides I don't want them bitching that we gave them bad advice! If they screw this up it should be totally on them.

Damned, I should have thought about this before my previous post - now when the Scottish dissolve and the experiment goes wrong, they'll blame trhe Germans - have to find a way to put the blame back on you!

[Skybird]

http://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/09/06/...poll-yes-lead/

The Scottish Independence movement has taken the lead in latest polls.

Well, if that is what they really want, okay. No people in one place is property of other people living somewhere else. The one people has no claims and rights over the other.

Of course it can and should be expected that Scotland lives by its own means, and cannot demand that others should pay its bills. Not "Restbritain", not the EU.

I would wish that several German federal states would leave federal Germany behind, too. The smaller and the more states, the better. Across the whole continent, so: in other countries the same splitting up, please.

Would also be a formidable weapon to destroy the EU and the Euro regime, and is a good antidot against tax-sucking by centralised political and administrative monopolists.

So I hope Scotland has done its calculations correctly, and goes all the way, and can live by its own means. Good luck!

[magicstix]

Being an American I have no dog in this fight, but I've always found it funny that the Scots seem to want to have it both ways by getting the good of independence and none of the bad. I found myself chuckling when they just automatically assumed they could keep using the UK sterling pound for currency and automatically join the EU with all of the same exceptions that were afforded the UK, as well as just being able to freely cross UK borders and use UK passports.

It sounds a lot like they just want to be independent in name only, with none of the hardships involved in being a sovereign nation...

[Eichhörnchen]

Visit our thread: "What's to Become of Sir Hamish?"

[Skybird]

I read about it today a bit, and it seems that that is why the independence movement was so successful: by taming expectations and telling people indeed that not many things would change.

The opponents of independence seem to have overdone the demonization tactic they tried.

I also read that there are fears that they could get a "conservative" government in London again at the next electiuns, while most Scots - at least that is what I read - would prefer a more "social-democratic" (=socialist) government. I wonder whether the author is right there?

Different to what I would have assumed, a fear to stay connected to the British pound, seems to play no role. But then, I know nothing about Scots and Scotland. Just know those beautiful pictures of landscapes.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Eichhornchen

Visit our thread: "What's to Become of Sir Hamish?"

Oh! I thought that were about some British literature, and so did not visit it!