Palestinians get Unesco seat as 107 vote in favour

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Yes, and I meant to indicate that it is in German when saying "German comment". Maybe I picked a wrong phrasing to indicate that. Sorry.

No problem Sky and certainly no need for an apology.

Could you possibly post a little detail on the articles contents because I'd certainly be interested?

Interesting, given that even the European Union classifies Hamas as a terrorist organization. Perhaps the French believe that the enemies of peace should be placated at all costs. Wouldn't be the first time they've thrown in the towel.

How are your governments negociations with the Taliban going? Have your politicians succesflly lobbied for the MEK to reopen their offices in America and get access to their terrorist bank accounts again?
What is interesting is the position the PLO got shoved into and how their deal has left the western nations in a diplomatic fix which is largely of their own making.

[papa_smurf]

If this is the response for Palestine joining UNESCO, what will happen if they get a seat in the UN proper?

If this is the response for Palestine joining UNESCO, what will happen if they get a seat in the UN proper?

Thats the funny part, murder and maim and the money still flows, ask for a vote and its a silly hissy fit you get.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

No problem Sky and certainly no need for an apology.

Could you possibly post a little detail on the articles contents because I'd certainly be interested?

Headline loosely translates into "Palestinians storm into dead end with pedal pressed to the metal". Article says that what separates poltical pros from wannabes just having good intentions is that they are aware of the longterm consequences, and these are that many projects also supported by the UNESCO and that maybe are more important, cannot be payed for anymore - which will sooner or later backfire against the Palestinians. It says also that it was stupid to bring Obama into a situation where he needed to show strength due to legal obligations he cannot escape, althiugh he probbaly does not want it, and that Europe showed a display of a union ripped apart and being totally impotent to achieve anything in the Middle East. Finally it relativizes the gains made by the Palestinians, since effectively they haven't gained anything, and also have given up the option to imply diplomatic pressure on Israel by threatening what they did right now. Now that they have done it, they cannot threaten with it anymore. Problem is: doing it did not gain them anything. The threat maybe was not too potent anyway, but it was more than what they got now. If they would have accepted a status of observer, like the EU accepts at the UNESCO, they also would have gotten what they had gotten now - but without the likely future scenario that those who will suffer due to the US not paying anymore sooner or later will remember whom they have to thank for for their loss.

I hope the US does not stop poayments just for some months, but insist on stopping them for as long as the UNESCO reverses its (illegal anyhow) decision. The US should not change its legislation to allow itself to pay anymore. I wqish my country would do something similiar. But that chance is almost zero.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by papa_smurf

they get a seat in the UN proper?

US veto in SC. No chance.

No US politician wanting to become - and stay as - president can afford to piss American Jewish voters that much - by allowing Palestinian UN membership and state recognition without Israel's agreement. Also, it is a strong Jewish lobby in America.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

How are your governments negociations with the Taliban going? Have your politicians succesflly lobbied for the MEK to reopen their offices in America and get access to their terrorist bank accounts again?
What is interesting is the position the PLO got shoved into and how their deal has left the western nations in a diplomatic fix which is largely of their own making.

Part of me wants to indulge in some visceral justice by pointing out your numerous spelling errors in an effort to subject you to a degree of the cheap shots that you take at others. However, as a moderator, I have to be above that. Responsibilities of the position and all.

That being said, I will agree with the central tenant of your argument, regardless of how crudely stated it may be. That is, all governments have dealings with those that probably shouldn't be dealt with at all. This only weakens the stance of the original poster in expressing moral outrage over those who have not supported his nation's 'bad guys' of choice.

[MH]

Originally Posted by Skybird

US veto in SC. No chance.

No US politician wanting to become - and stay as - president can afford to piss American Jewish voters that much - by allowing Palestinian UN membership and state recognition without Israel's agreement. Also, it is a strong Jewish lobby in America.

I'm not sure about it because Jewish community is divided very much about this whole issue too-just like Israelis.
It might be different if American Jews had an impression that USA is abandoning Israel as an ally all together due to total shift in policy... i think.

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

US veto in SC. No chance.

No US politician wanting to become - and stay as - president can afford to piss American Jewish voters that much - by allowing Palestinian UN membership and state recognition without Israel's agreement. Also, it is a strong Jewish lobby in America.

While all this may be true I should point out that American support for Israel does not come from Jewish-Americans alone as that statement implies.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by August

While all this may be true I should point out that American support for Israel does not come from Jewish-Americans alone as that statement implies.

It doesn't "imply" that at all. I just say there is a strong Jewish lobby, and a huge Jewish voter-base. I am aware that many non-Jewish Americans also support the current way of going.

---

On the UNESCO decision, something else: there are the treaties of Oslo which explicitly have ruled that neither side should create facts changing the status of a Palestinian state unilaterally as long as this state does not result from mutal agreement in negotiations. This Oslo treaty, whatever it is worth, is being violated by the Palestinians as well, obviously.

[MH]

Originally Posted by Skybird

On the UNESCO decision, something else: there are the treaties of Oslo which explicitly have ruled that neither side should create facts changing the status of a Palestinian state unilaterally as long as this state does not result from mutal agreement in negotiations. This Oslo treaty, whatever it is worth, is being violated by the Palestinians as well, obviously.

It is totally pointless argument.
According to Abu Mazen hamas is just slightly right wing party in Palestinian politics.
Judging by the amount of hamas flags waved after Shalit deal(waving hamas flags had been illegal in PA until recently due to PR)i have my doubts (and always had)what will come next when Abu Mazen is gone.
Some peacemakers say that Abu Mazen is last pragmatic leader left in PA- i wonder how this is supposed to make me feel better.
The popularity of extremists is always there but is kept under the hood to create false impression of peaceful society fighting for its rights by legit means.
It apparently works very well.

I'm absolutely certain West bank can easily become second Gaza but with small difference of nice view from the hills above of whole central Israel -just few short miles away.
Its quite enough that whole southern Israel is under daily bombardment every time some "unlawful freedom fighter" wakes up with bad mood in the morning.


That's main reason why all this political mumbo jumbo or who is right or historically wrong is totally meaningless to me besides pure historical learning value.
When Palestinians become civilised society(i know i'm generalising) ill be more than happy to have them as neighbours.

Carry on this theological discussion......

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

It doesn't "imply" that at all. I just say there is a strong Jewish lobby, and a huge Jewish voter-base. I am aware that many non-Jewish Americans also support the current way of going.

I'm not disagreeing with you Skybird, just pointing out that our support of Israel does not exist because of Jewish lobbying, it is multi-ethnic.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Headline loosely translates into "Palestinians storm into dead end with pedal pressed to the metal". Article says that what separates poltical pros from wannabes just having good intentions is that they are aware of the longterm consequences, and these are that many projects also supported by the UNESCO and that maybe are more important, cannot be payed for anymore - which will sooner or later backfire against the Palestinians. It says also that it was stupid to bring Obama into a situation where he needed to show strength due to legal obligations he cannot escape, althiugh he probbaly does not want it, and that Europe showed a display of a union ripped apart and being totally impotent to achieve anything in the Middle East. Finally it relativizes the gains made by the Palestinians, since effectively they haven't gained anything, and also have given up the option to imply diplomatic pressure on Israel by threatening what they did right now. Now that they have done it, they cannot threaten with it anymore. Problem is: doing it did not gain them anything. The threat maybe was not too potent anyway, but it was more than what they got now. If they would have accepted a status of observer, like the EU accepts at the UNESCO, they also would have gotten what they had gotten now - but without the likely future scenario that those who will suffer due to the US not paying anymore sooner or later will remember whom they have to thank for for their loss.

I hope the US does not stop poayments just for some months, but insist on stopping them for as long as the UNESCO reverses its (illegal anyhow) decision. The US should not change its legislation to allow itself to pay anymore. I wqish my country would do something similiar. But that chance is almost zero.

Cheers Sky

Originally Posted by August

I'm not disagreeing with you Skybird, just pointing out that our support of Israel does not exist because of Jewish lobbying, it is multi-ethnic.

Much the same as here in the UK but I'm unaware of why we abstained

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by August

I'm not disagreeing with you Skybird, just pointing out that our support of Israel does not exist because of Jewish lobbying, it is multi-ethnic.

I completely understand what you mean, I just do not accept when you said I "implied" that it is only due to Jewish lobbying that american opinion is like this or that. I think Jewish lobbying and the non-lobbied opinion of that voting group as well is a primary factor and a very important motive for american political acting, and I think it is such a strong one that no politicians can afford to ignore it, but I did not say (=imply) I think it is the decisive and only drive behind things.

I hope the US does not stop poayments just for some months, but insist on stopping them for as long as the UNESCO reverses its (illegal anyhow) decision.

"Illegal anyhow" under some rubbish skybird invented and applied.
Another case of the special skybird invisible ink lines where he is trying to blur 2 into 3

Nice to see the Israeli response though, another announcement of further expansion of illegal settlements.

Much the same as here in the UK but I'm unaware of why we abstained

It was the easiest option, there was little or no chance of stopping the needed two thirds in the vote needed for a place which doesn't have full UN member status but does have international relations.
The Palestinian plan appears the same as the other recent ones, affect nothing really on the ground but humiliate those countries which vote against it. It is building up to a point where some of the quartet will be seriously damaged in their chosen role as intermediaries