Palestinians get Unesco seat as 107 vote in favour

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by August

While all this may be true I should point out that American support for Israel does not come from Jewish-Americans alone as that statement implies.

It doesn't "imply" that at all. I just say there is a strong Jewish lobby, and a huge Jewish voter-base. I am aware that many non-Jewish Americans also support the current way of going.

---

On the UNESCO decision, something else: there are the treaties of Oslo which explicitly have ruled that neither side should create facts changing the status of a Palestinian state unilaterally as long as this state does not result from mutal agreement in negotiations. This Oslo treaty, whatever it is worth, is being violated by the Palestinians as well, obviously.

[MH]

Originally Posted by Skybird

On the UNESCO decision, something else: there are the treaties of Oslo which explicitly have ruled that neither side should create facts changing the status of a Palestinian state unilaterally as long as this state does not result from mutal agreement in negotiations. This Oslo treaty, whatever it is worth, is being violated by the Palestinians as well, obviously.

It is totally pointless argument.
According to Abu Mazen hamas is just slightly right wing party in Palestinian politics.
Judging by the amount of hamas flags waved after Shalit deal(waving hamas flags had been illegal in PA until recently due to PR)i have my doubts (and always had)what will come next when Abu Mazen is gone.
Some peacemakers say that Abu Mazen is last pragmatic leader left in PA- i wonder how this is supposed to make me feel better.
The popularity of extremists is always there but is kept under the hood to create false impression of peaceful society fighting for its rights by legit means.
It apparently works very well.

I'm absolutely certain West bank can easily become second Gaza but with small difference of nice view from the hills above of whole central Israel -just few short miles away.
Its quite enough that whole southern Israel is under daily bombardment every time some "unlawful freedom fighter" wakes up with bad mood in the morning.


That's main reason why all this political mumbo jumbo or who is right or historically wrong is totally meaningless to me besides pure historical learning value.
When Palestinians become civilised society(i know i'm generalising) ill be more than happy to have them as neighbours.

Carry on this theological discussion......

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

It doesn't "imply" that at all. I just say there is a strong Jewish lobby, and a huge Jewish voter-base. I am aware that many non-Jewish Americans also support the current way of going.

I'm not disagreeing with you Skybird, just pointing out that our support of Israel does not exist because of Jewish lobbying, it is multi-ethnic.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Headline loosely translates into "Palestinians storm into dead end with pedal pressed to the metal". Article says that what separates poltical pros from wannabes just having good intentions is that they are aware of the longterm consequences, and these are that many projects also supported by the UNESCO and that maybe are more important, cannot be payed for anymore - which will sooner or later backfire against the Palestinians. It says also that it was stupid to bring Obama into a situation where he needed to show strength due to legal obligations he cannot escape, althiugh he probbaly does not want it, and that Europe showed a display of a union ripped apart and being totally impotent to achieve anything in the Middle East. Finally it relativizes the gains made by the Palestinians, since effectively they haven't gained anything, and also have given up the option to imply diplomatic pressure on Israel by threatening what they did right now. Now that they have done it, they cannot threaten with it anymore. Problem is: doing it did not gain them anything. The threat maybe was not too potent anyway, but it was more than what they got now. If they would have accepted a status of observer, like the EU accepts at the UNESCO, they also would have gotten what they had gotten now - but without the likely future scenario that those who will suffer due to the US not paying anymore sooner or later will remember whom they have to thank for for their loss.

I hope the US does not stop poayments just for some months, but insist on stopping them for as long as the UNESCO reverses its (illegal anyhow) decision. The US should not change its legislation to allow itself to pay anymore. I wqish my country would do something similiar. But that chance is almost zero.

Cheers Sky

Originally Posted by August

I'm not disagreeing with you Skybird, just pointing out that our support of Israel does not exist because of Jewish lobbying, it is multi-ethnic.

Much the same as here in the UK but I'm unaware of why we abstained

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by August

I'm not disagreeing with you Skybird, just pointing out that our support of Israel does not exist because of Jewish lobbying, it is multi-ethnic.

I completely understand what you mean, I just do not accept when you said I "implied" that it is only due to Jewish lobbying that american opinion is like this or that. I think Jewish lobbying and the non-lobbied opinion of that voting group as well is a primary factor and a very important motive for american political acting, and I think it is such a strong one that no politicians can afford to ignore it, but I did not say (=imply) I think it is the decisive and only drive behind things.

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

I completely understand what you mean, I just do not accept when you said I "implied" that it is only due to Jewish lobbying that american opinion is like this or that. I think Jewish lobbying and the non-lobbied opinion of that voting group as well is a primary factor and a very important motive for american political acting, and I think it is such a strong one that no politicians can afford to ignore it, but I did not say (=imply) I think it is the decisive and only drive behind things.

My fault. I didn't mean to imply that your implication was deliberate.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by Skybird

On the UNESCO decision, something else: there are the treaties of Oslo which explicitly have ruled that neither side should create facts changing the status of a Palestinian state unilaterally as long as this state does not result from mutal agreement in negotiations. This Oslo treaty, whatever it is worth, is being violated by the Palestinians as well, obviously.

Might be true legally, but morally this is a ridiculously unfair treaty in such a case. By your description, it simply says that Israel can deny Palestinians independence as long as it wants.

No wonder the Palestinians are resorting to bombing attacks...

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

Might be true legally, but morally this is a ridiculously unfair treaty in such a case. By your description, it simply says that Israel can deny Palestinians independence as long as it wants.

No wonder the Palestinians are resorting to bombing attacks...

The Palestinians agreed to and signed the treaty of Oslo.

And do you want to say that arbitrary, indistinctive murder of random civilians in attacks designed to randomly kill as many non-combattants as possible in attacks aimed at non-combattants in the first, can be excused? "You give us our will, else...!" ??

I tell you what, the Palestinians simply are no clever people and no clever faction. They pick the wrong choices time and again, throughout the past decades. And everybody in the Arab world knows that they are politically impotent, untrustworthy, and notorious trouble-makers, and that is the reason why not even anyone in the Arab worlds really wants to deal with them. They get instrumentalised for other purposes, but do not be mistaken: in Arab nations, and in Persia as well, in reality the Palestinians simply are pariahs. And that is a reputation they are responsible for all by themselves. I saw this basic attitude towards them in Algeria. In Libya. in Turkey. In Egypt. In persian Iran anyway. And for the short days I was moving through there: in Jordan as well (what a surprise, after the stunt they tried there). Hell, even in distant Pakistan they were on their guard against the Palestinians!

Those Arab Muslim brothers and sisters all just one big happy family - ha! Big words, hot air, nothing more. In those places they become drunk and stoned of pathetic words, the more pathos the better. And we are lucky that it is that way. Not to imagine what our position would be if they really would be that united as they claim they are. A united Islamic world acting in coordination: that is a nightmare vision I have.

On a side-note, some Saudi terror-prince has set up rewards of 1 million dollars for kidnapping Israeli soldiers, I read today. That is also one of these helpful things. The next king that is rumoured to be nominated for office, also is said to be an extremely medieval, women-hostile fundamentalism-hardliner. And Germany and America arming them up like crazy, and Europe still affording to depend on Saudi oil. Fan-tas-tic.

[MH]

Actually he is right lol

They signed the treaty and then Arafat got Nobel prize for suicidal bombing policy...ok... he got the price beforehand and decided it wasn't fair...

That's very distant past though......

Next stage is to give them what they want now so that someone can decide its not fair again....and shoot rockets on Tel Aviv....Oh..wait what about Jaffa.