PERFECT SIM! What can we make out of SH5/SH3?

[urfisch]

hey folks.

i am following sh5 since release and sh3 also since release. i stopped playing sh5 and also sh3, due to some reasons. i always hoped to see sh5 reaching the state of sh3. but i begin to be in doubt about the ability of a development modders can give to sh5´s gameplay, as for mod-limitations from the game itself.



so i ask myself:

HOW MUCH CAN WE REALLY IMPORT FROM SH5...OR HOW MUCH CAN BE EXPORTET FROM SH3, TO MAKE THE PERFECT SIM?



in my opinion and as a conclusion after reading through the forums the last month since release, gameplay is THE KEY for fun and immersion - uhh, what a discovery! fact is, sh5 gameplay never REALLY kicked me and many of the people playing sh5. many switched back to sh3, or simply only play sh5 for a quick&dirty sub expedition. also for me sh3´s game-structure gives us the most immersive, realistic gameplay a subsim can have...BUT it got old fashioned, it should be polished! this is the point, where sh5 is interesting again.

for example, sh5 has a really, really, REALLY NICE enviroment, since w_clear got the hell out of the engine. looks nearly 100% real. and also the crew-models are very nice to look at. but gameplay still has, and will always have a lack of feeling, sh3 gave us...so what to do???

SH5 pros
------------

- Enviroment
- Water
- overall 3D models
- FX abilities (Fire, etc.)
- Engine potential


SH3 pros
------------

- Game structure
- Gameplay!!! (Immersion, Mission structure, atmosphere, etc)
- Modded AI
- Megamods
- Modability
- Communitys Mod Experience

so, TDW, Privateer, Skwasjer, W_clear, reaper7, Anvart, flakmonkey, diving duck, JScones, rowi58, HanSolo78, SteelViking and all other passioned modders. what can we do, to make the perfect sim? which way is better to walk on:

SH3 as base game, adding features from SH5

or

SH5 as base game, adding the most popular features from SH3

???

[fitzcarraldo]

Originally Posted by urfisch

hey folks.

i am following sh5 since release and sh3 also since release. i stopped playing sh5 and also sh3, due to some reasons. i always hoped to see sh5 reaching the state of sh3. but i begin to be in doubt about the ability of a development modders can give to sh5´s gameplay, as for mod-limitations from the game itself.



so i ask myself:

HOW MUCH CAN WE REALLY IMPORT FROM SH5...OR HOW MUCH CAN BE EXPORTET FROM SH3, TO MAKE THE PERFECT SIM?



in my opinion and as a conclusion after reading through the forums the last month since release, gameplay is THE KEY for fun and immersion - uhh, what a discovery! fact is, sh5 gameplay never REALLY kicked me and many of the people playing sh5. many switched back to sh3, or simply only play sh5 for a quick&dirty sub expedition. also for me sh3´s game-structure gives us the most immersive, realistic gameplay a subsim can have...BUT it got old fashioned, it should be polished! this is the point, where sh5 is interesting again.

for example, sh5 has a really, really, REALLY NICE enviroment, since w_clear got the hell out of the engine. looks nearly 100% real. and also the crew-models are very nice to look at. but gameplay still has, and will always have a lack of feeling, sh3 gave us...so what to do???

SH5 pros
------------

- Enviroment
- Water
- overall 3D models
- FX abilities (Fire, etc.)
- Engine potential


SH3 pros
------------

- Game structure
- Gameplay!!! (Immersion, Mission structure, atmosphere, etc)
- Modded AI
- Megamods
- Modability
- Communitys Mod Experience

so, TDW, Privateer, Skwasjer, W_clear, reaper7, Anvart, flakmonkey, diving duck, JScones, rowi58, HanSolo78, SteelViking and all other passioned modders. what can we do, to make the perfect sim? which way is better to walk on:

SH3 as base game, adding features from SH5

or

SH5 as base game, adding the most popular features from SH3

???

Because I uninstalled SH5 (for me, a comic game), I like to import some candies from SH5 to SH3. I think SH3 is the best U-Boot sim!

Regards.

Fitzcarraldo

[TheDarkWraith]

I shelved SH3. SH3 is vastly inferior in comparison to SH5. I've only begun to figure out what SH5 can do. SH5 will be the best SH yet in time As of now SH3 can't touch it with mods - especially with my UIs mod, IRAI, Automation, Tutorials, Real navigation, and FX Update mods. Just finishing up lighthouses for SH5 currently . Don't waste your time on SH3....the engine is getting pushed pretty near it's limits but SH5 is just an infant and we have the ability to script - which means endless possibilities

[fitzcarraldo]

Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith

I shelved SH3. SH3 is vastly inferior in comparison to SH5. I've only begun to figure out what SH5 can do. SH5 will be the best SH yet in time As of now SH3 can't touch it with mods - especially with my UIs mod, IRAI, Automation, Tutorials, Real navigation, and FX Update mods. Just finishing up lighthouses for SH5 currently . Don't waste your time on SH3....the engine is getting pushed pretty near it's limits but SH5 is just an infant and we have the ability to script - which means endless possibilities

I prefer a seasoned mate to an infant sailor...SH5 needs an all-extensive-modification for a good comparission with SH3 modded. While the infant continue to be a baby...I´ll play SH3.

Regards!

Fitzcarraldo

[Hitman]

Actually your questions had already a very solid response to our avail: The one which will probably rank first as most underrated submarine simulation in history ... Silent Hunter 4

It is the perfect balance between the SH5 eyecandy and the SH3 gameplay, and has potential to surpass them both in their respective strong areas if developed hard enough. But there it is, collecting dust in many people's shelf, and far away from the attention of most of the talented modders. If it had received half the dedication and talent that SH5 already has, we would no doubt have the best ever submarine simulations. Sadly it didn't , and probably the end of the GWX4 project meant the definitive burying of the promise SH4 had. With a GWX4 we would have seen many other mods flourish around that solid base, and many more people attracted into the game.

The irony is that SH5 not just killed itself, it also killed UBI's submarine gaming franchise and even also killed the amazing potential of his predecessor and our main hope of getting a fantastic and solid submarine simulator. That's for me reason enough to hate SH5 and lack any interest on it

[Myxale]

Originally Posted by Hitman

The irony is that SH5 not just killed itself, it also killed UBI's submarine gaming franchise and even also killed the amazing potential of his predecessor and our main hope of getting a fantastic and solid submarine simulator.

An interesting observation! And almost true!
The GWX team too had high hopes for SH5 hence them stopping on GWX4.

I think that one reason as to why SH4 bit it was the lack of support from Ubi. The whole series lacked proper support,and i think that the modders got tired looking for complicated workarounds for the simplest bugs and restriction.

It is still to early to give up on SH5. I really hope it too can become an solid platform for more.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Hitman

Actually your questions had already a very solid response to our avail: The one which will probably rank first as most underrated submarine simulation in history ... Silent Hunter 4

It is the perfect balance between the SH5 eyecandy and the SH3 gameplay, and has potential to surpass them both in their respective strong areas if developed hard enough. But there it is, collecting dust in many people's shelf, and far away from the attention of most of the talented modders. If it had received half the dedication and talent that SH5 already has, we would no doubt have the best ever submarine simulations. Sadly it didn't , and probably the end of the GWX4 project meant the definitive burying of the promise SH4 had. With a GWX4 we would have seen many other mods flourish around that solid base, and many more people attracted into the game.

The irony is that SH5 not just killed itself, it also killed UBI's submarine gaming franchise and even also killed the amazing potential of his predecessor and our main hope of getting a fantastic and solid submarine simulator. That's for me reason enough to hate SH5 and lack any interest on it

Pretty much agree with what Hitman has posted and refuse to take issue with another individuals totally negative and IMHO 'biaised' comments.

One of the reasons GWX4 was cancelled and I repeat ONE was out of respect for Ubisoft and the developers of the forthcoming release of SH5.

Add to that the fact that some key members of the Grey Wolves were quite frankly knackered/worn out and in at least one instance paid a very personal price for their efforts, not to mention the constance war of words between different factions within the community.

Consider the above and let me quote a poignant statement from a team member shortly before the decision to pull the plug on GWX4 was taken....."Why are we busting a gut trying to teach a pig to sing when we already know in advance there is a newer SH release due"?

What we didn't know 'officially' at the time was the fact said release would be limited in time span and U-boat types.

I know Steve has already accurately stated publicly on this forum that some of the Grey Wolves have left, never to return, some remain and are working on one or two projects either singlehandedly or collectively and The Lair is not as busy as it has been in the past (he should know, he has unrestricted access) LOL.

Right now it is good too see fresh talent taking up the modding course and serving the community to the best of their abilities and long may it continue.

On a personal note I am simply awaiting the release of this and that....it is nice being the customer in the sweet shop for a change.

SINK EM ALL!!

[vlad29]

Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith

I shelved SH3. SH3 is vastly inferior in comparison to SH5. I've only begun to figure out what SH5 can do. SH5 will be the best SH yet in time As of now SH3 can't touch it with mods - especially with my UIs mod, IRAI, Automation, Tutorials, Real navigation, and FX Update mods. Just finishing up lighthouses for SH5 currently . Don't waste your time on SH3....the engine is getting pushed pretty near it's limits but SH5 is just an infant and we have the ability to script - which means endless possibilities

+1
IMHO SH5 is a rough product but with great potential. Don't U remember what had hapened when SH3 stock version was just released?! - The same as we can see now with SH5 (users damns on the PCGforums, addressed to UBISOFT, and almost no good replies re. the game). After the first mods and oficial packs+addons have appeared, the gamers community's oppinion had changed directly.
Probably somebody knows about UBISOFT plans: if they are going to proceed with further official upgrading SH5 or just gave it up already in favour of next projects?

[tonschk]

Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith

I shelved SH3. SH3 is vastly inferior in comparison to SH5. I've only begun to figure out what SH5 can do. SH5 will be the best SH yet in time As of now SH3 can't touch it with mods - especially with my UIs mod, IRAI, Automation, Tutorials, Real navigation, and FX Update mods. Just finishing up lighthouses for SH5 currently . Don't waste your time on SH3....the engine is getting pushed pretty near it's limits but SH5 is just an infant and we have the ability to script - which means endless possibilities

I totally 100% Agree with TheDarkWraith

[Hitman]

another fact that makes me feel, sh5 isnt the right choice is, many talented and skilled modders we had in sh3 (or sh4) are not onboard with sh5 any more. so the manpower might be another reason, why sh5 will never reach the state of an sh3.

...

why have so many skilled modders left with sh5? cause they where kicked in the ass by ubis "NEW GEN SUBSIM CONCEPT" and the very, very bad support for this game.

In my opinion as modder, the main problem with SH5 is that while much more flexible than SH3 and a bit more flexible than SH4, the new functionality/flexibility has come at the cost of complicating modding the game.

So we now have an excellent basis ... that only a handful of talented guys with specific knowledge like The Dark Wraith or Privateer, for example, can actually mod in its core

If you check my own case, you will see that I learned to mod SH3 and produced several optics and GUI mods, but the new step in complication
with SH4 already stopped me there. With SH5 and Python knowledge required, I would not even bother trying to start it!!!

That's IMHO the main reason why many modders have stayed away from SH5, the enormous complication of modding it, which with SH3/4 was partially overcomed with Silent Editor, but in SH5 is ultimately still there.

[rocker_lx]

For me a good game is about immersion, this does mean for me that the graphics can never be good enough. I agree when people say that a dream would be SH5 with the campaign, U-boat types, equipment and time frame offered by SH3 (and maybe GWX).

I have high hopes in the work of privateer. I think SH5 has a nice future, if he can create a possibility to add all those things into SH5.
Also thanks to TheDarkWraith for creating this nice experience with his cool UIs.

[JCWolf]

Hi there guys,


Here is my point of view as a SH3 Moder.


First after 3 years of making all kinds of graphic Mods and latter changing to larger mods of my own and merging along some other Mods upon my U.Boat releases i reached to a conclusion in the end, The first and most obvious one was that GWX was at least for me the Super Mod that really transported the SH3 game into its limits, as for game play and game engine capacity, GWX gave us all the extension and game upgrade that we and the game needed to finally be played in a totally different way and gave us a totally new experience.

from that a lot of new guys and other established moders made some important changes making at the end a game that we all loved and still love, but most of all, the doors were opened that we thought would never be opened, and the game jumped into a new level that I personally believe made UBI realize that could exploit the situation and launch 2 new New Sub Sim that in fact took the complete wrong direction, SH4 UBI's first attempt to refresh SH3 Game was in my opinion a failure cause of their choice of changing the Atlantic Scenery for the Pacific, Then later on SH5 another attempt from UBI to capture the Community again resulted in another bad move cause bring you to Middle Atlantic war taking us the all experience that we all loved in SH3...Game engines are the natural evolution in this 3 games, we all know that SH 4 and 5 have a superb game engine that is wasted in a game play that lacks horizon lines or if you want a better developed game base and story, With respect for the Pacific Sub war , nothing is compared to the German u-boat Atlantic campaign during the WWII years, so everything that UBI as done was taking out the "Candy" (SH3 Atlantic war) from the community and try to
change the outstanding community Modding creativity to explore new Sub Sim scenarios like the Pacific and then realizing their mistake go back to the German Atlantic war but again the wrong way by starting the game campaign in middle war....

I left the Modding Cause I had personal reasons but also cause the SH3
is in fact a game that is reaching its limits if didn't already, and cause his newest brothers are to limited yet to capture my creative vain....

I have all the SH3 games, stored and waiting for better days.

In my opinion, Sh4 is the game that can really support a major Modding change, Transporting the actual Pacific campaign to the Atlantic, with all the SH3 features and better graphics and with the possibility to had a lot more cause of its game engine...

...Can you imagine SH3 Ported to SH4 game and all the actual Major Mods that make SH3 a Land mark on this series?...

...Now imagine the modding possibility's that yet could be added into the game...


I think the community should be alert to this ...I still think that GWX is the right team to do it, I believe there are a lot of talented Modders in this place and that more can still born and make the SH4 the next SH3 sim...


But this are just my thoughts.

[makman94]

with the ubi trying to turn a whole community (which is full of passioned sub simulator fans) only to some 2d image editors or 3d importers-exporters ....you will all believe ,at the end , that the 'goal' is to manage to import some 3d models ingame or to 'heal' sh5's bugs...
well ,this is not healthy modding gentlemen !
from day one they should have give to modders tools for importing-exporting...this is not big deal and IS NOT CHANGING THE GAME and eventually is not MODDING the game .there is no difference at the game itself if you have to sink 10 different ships or...200 ships .
why they are not giving the tools ? i know the answer but i can't (and don't want ) to say about it in public but it is not so hard to think about the reason.(and i also believe that Skawjer and Jscones is the worst nightmare the guys at ubi-romania have )
sh5 brings nothing new in its code and maybe TDW believes that scripts can 'save' ubi's crap again .why 'crap'? becuase it is not a sub sim(also sh3 and sh4 are not sims...the only thing that is simulated is the manual targeting) ...it is a game for kids with some...'sub' in its files.this is the big fail of sh5 (not the bugs and neither the drm) ...it 'betrates' the last 'hopes' to see a SIMULATOR from ubi-romania...they choosed the easy way(a simple sub game) just to get some money in their pockets
...sh5...a ''5'' that is only a shame for a 2010 game. if you want to see pround ''5''s look at resident evil 5 or at gran turismo 5 ....these are real ''5''s from games fifth sequels on 2010 !

Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith

..... Don't waste your time on SH3....the engine is getting pushed pretty near it's limits but SH5 is just an infant and we have the ability to script - which means endless possibilities .....

@for TDW(really no offence to you ,although, it may seems so):

can 'your' scripts add PROPER and complete physics to ships-subs that devs didn't add to sh5's code ?

can 'your' scripts add a proper and complete model for the sound's travelling in water or a complete simulation of sonarman's station that devs didn't add to sh5's code ?

can 'your' scripts add a correct code for making the sensors works
properly at last that devs didn't fix neither to sh3's neither to sh4's and now neither to sh5's code? wtf,are doing these guys...ruining things?at each sequel are just getting...worst (in case that you ''miss'' it ,sensors NEVER worked correct-night vampires- becuase of bad programming .... tell me,did you managed to solve this at your IRAI mod?)

can 'your' scripts add a complete code for having a working radar that devs didn't add to sh5's code?(radar....it is like a ..joke even to mention it)

and there are more to add to this list...
if i am wrong at this and devs have actually add something to sh5's code well ...please somebody ask them to tell us (and why not ..to advertise their work) at last what exactly they have add !i also want to know but ...THEY ARE NOT SAYING (is it...secret?)!

you see, TDW,i believe that the sh5 is actually the waste of time ... it needs too much work for nothing hot at the end..nothing ..new!
now ,if i am wrong, and 'your' scripts can add the aboves then ...i take back everything i said and i will agree and say the same thing with you:''yes,there is a potential to this game'' but if 'your' scripts can't add the aboves....where is that potential that you see ?to the nicer...graphics ,to the Kpt 'Forest Gump' or to the engine room ? (in which, btw,are allready totally lose by Flakmonkey's or Tomi's engines)
and ,now , that the 'road' is open at sh3 for editing the executables (have a look at H.Sie's thread) , i am sure that you can make 'miracles' with your knowledge .

ps: happy new year to every subsimer with health and smiles !

[h.sie]

@Makman94: Thanks for mentioning "my" thread. But with assembler and without SDK one can only change / add little things. No big deal is possible (for me).

I agree in many aspects you mentioned in your post above, but why are we both wasting our time with a - as you said - sub 'game' , since it is clear that we'll never get a sim that satisfies our wishes? would we both play if there were a perfect subsimulator? I doubt that.

[makman94]

Originally Posted by h.sie

......
I agree in many aspects you mentioned in your post above, but why are we both wasting our time with a - as you said - sub 'game' , since it is clear that we'll never get a sim that satisfies our wishes? would we both play if there were a perfect subsimulator? I doubt that.

i am ....afraid that you are ....right !