A system of revenge

[August]

Originally Posted by DarkFish

I sincerely hope you don't mean to say that anyone who hasn't served is a less good/patriotic/worthy citizen.

I usually say exactly what I mean Darkfish. The man said "we". That implies inclusiveness.

[August]

Originally Posted by Blood_splat

He is, besides my dad spilled his blood in that nice little war in Vietnam.

No I am not and your father is not you.

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by August

Really? you'd prefer an IED blowing up in your face? You'd prefer eating dust and sweating your butt off waiting for the Taliban to attack? You'd prefer having scorpions and spiders bite you like what killed a young man from a nearby town that was stationed in that hell hole just a couple weeks ago? You'd prefer having your limbs blown off or being blinded to that nice safe cell? Please.

To back up Skybird here, I know I would.

Yes, soldiers have a *small* chance of being killed/handicapped. Yes, they are fighting in harsh, hot, dusty and dangerous conditions. But at least they are not confined to a 1.8 by 3.6 metres cell 23 hours a day. They are not disturbed every 5 minutes and they are not systematically woken up every few hours at the discretion of their superiors.

Originally Posted by August

I usually say exactly what I mean Darkfish. The man said "we". That implies inclusiveness.

With "he" he likely means the American people. Not exclusively the US military. The military are part of the people though, so they can be included in the "we". That does not mean every "we" is a soldier.

[August]

Originally Posted by DarkFish

Yes, he did fail his duty as a soldier.
But as a citizen of the United States, he did what he should have done.

No he betrayed his fellow soldiers and his country and he's gonna burn for it.

Seriously, why do you Americans put so much emphasis on this guy, and not on what your government does? Your government is the bigger criminal here. Yet you all insist on going after the "petty thief" while letting the big bad guy walk away.

Does this mean that:
- You are so indoctrinated by your government that you accept everything it does to you
- You think your government is entitled to do literally everything it wants, even things that go against your own constitution
- You think that being a spy is a bigger crime than being a government that betrays and lies to its own people

Now which of the above is it?

None of the above. Your very questions show you do not understand us at all.

[August]

Originally Posted by DarkFish

To back up Skybird here, I know I would.

Yes, soldiers have a *small* chance of being killed/handicapped. Yes, they are fighting in harsh, hot, dusty and dangerous conditions. But at least they are not confined to a 1.8 by 3.6 metres cell 23 hours a day. They are not disturbed every 5 minutes and they are not systematically woken up every few hours at the discretion of their superiors.

So I'm curious. How would you handle this? Would you just let him return to his duties until his court martial?

With "he" he likely means the American people. Not exclusively the US military. The military are part of the people though, so they can be included in the "we". That does not mean every "we" is a soldier.

When a man has volunteered to wear his countries uniform then he can claim "we" when he's talking about those that actually do the fighting, bleeding and dying.

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by August

No he betrayed his fellow soldiers and his country

He betrayed his fellow soldiers. He has broken his oath. He betrayed his government. He didn't betray his country.

and he's gonna burn for it.

Ah, the sweet smell of revenge

None of the above. Your very questions show you do not understand us at all.

If it's none of the above, then what is it? Why are you all angered because of this Manning guy, while you don't seem to care about what your government did?

And you're quite right about me not understanding US citizens. You guys keep surprising me time after time, and not for the better.

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by August

So I'm curious. How would you handle this? Would you just let him return to his duties until his court martial?

Neither Skybird or I has ever said he should return to military duties. This question has never been about if Manning should return to military duty, just about if "his suffering is lesser than that of the troops in Afghanistan's garrisons", to literally quote Skybird.

Please don't change the question into one that suits you better.

As to what I would do, I've repeatedly told already that Manning should be punished according to the law.

When a man has volunteered to wear his countries uniform then he can claim "we" when he's talking about those that actually do the fighting, bleeding and dying.

Two simple questions:
- Are US troops also US citizens?
- Are US troops fighting?

[August]

Originally Posted by DarkFish

He betrayed his fellow soldiers. He has broken his oath. He betrayed his government. He didn't betray his country.

They're the same thing. "government by the people, for the people and of the people". It's a concept you Europeans with your long history of monarchs and dictators probably just don't seem able to understand.

Ah, the sweet smell of revenge

What revenge? A hope isn't revenge. It isn't even a threat of revenge, or are you implying that I personally have a say in Mannings guilt or innocence?

If it's none of the above, then what is it? Why are you all angered because of this Manning guy, while you don't seem to care about what your government did?

What exactly has our government done that's so bad according to Wikileaks? Being worried about Indian bio weapon custody? Seeing Russia as run by organized crime? Talking about Ghadaffis large breasted assistant? You people keep implying there is some sort of bombshell dropped by Assange. So far all I see is a few slight embarrassments.

You guys keep surprising me time after time, and not for the better.

Oh i'll sure loose sleep over that!

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by August

You misread it. He is not denied the opportunity to sleep. I don't know what right a prisoner has to not be bothered at all like you seem to be demanding.

Yeah, lets bother him to kill some time. Let'S limit water and food a bit, or reduce the oxygene level. Or limit his sleep intervals to harmfully short intervals.

The man is on suicide watch! You'd prefer they just leave him alone so he can figure out a way to kill himself?

You are malicious if seriously trying to make people believe beeing woken up every 5 minutes (if you have slept indeed) is "being given the opportunity to sleep". Calling that suicide watch is malicous and cynical, too. If you would be forced to exist in such a restricted manner like he is, you would think about suicide, too. So would I, so would most others sooner or later, if not even all people.

Really? you'd prefer an IED blowing up in your face? You'd prefer eating dust and sweating your butt off waiting for the Taliban to attack? You'd prefer having scorpions and spiders bite you like what killed a young man from a nearby town that was stationed in that hell hole just a couple weeks ago? You'd prefer having your limbs blown off or being blinded to that nice safe cell? Please.

That is better than sitting in a cell, bein g asked every 5 minutes, being refused a biologically meaningful ammount of sleep, being boredcbvoredboredboredbored all day, long, staring at the wall, being hindered to excercise in a cell that even is nothing more than a box. Again, you are malicious and cynical if you seriously want us to believe that his everyday life is nothing else but psychological torture. Yes, I prefer a painful life of exhaustion and effort to that - every time I needed to chose. Becasue Manning - is being buried alive. I would even prefer to get executed or commit suicide, than being forced to vegetate from day to day, like Manning. It's no life, it is not even life in prison. It's being buried alive.

I never implied that at all.

You said: "or should we just take his lawyers claims as gospel?"

I think he's guilty. I have the right to my opinion. You'll note that I am neither judge or jury in that case.

What you (or me) think, is not the point here. What a court has found about the case - that is what matters in any system of justice worth the name, as long as it bases on principles and laws that represent a consenus of a society and culture about what "just" and "fair" means. Believing he is guilty, is not sufficient. Assuming he is guilty, is not sufficient. Guilt must be proven. For that, people must be brought to court. So far Manning has not even been brought to court. Has he even be charged for anything...?

By that line of reasoning any incarceration at all is "not too far away from that". He is not being kept chained to the wall, he is not kept in a fixated position.

If you are being denied to lay or sleep when you are tired over the day, and if you are being woken up every five minutes when you sleep at night, or try to sleep at least, and if you are kept in a box the sioze of three or four beds, then it is like I said: then it is not far away from having people fixiated with iron chains on the wall, or bind them on beds in a psychiatry and do with them what you want. I assume you also belong to those naive people who seriously think that moving prisoners around in camp delta by having them chained on on rolling beds is to protect them from health riosk in case they stumble over their feet...?

What they do with Manning, is nothing else but sleep deprivation. Do you want to discuss with me what sleep deprivation does to a human's psyche and mental status...?

Now you're just being a drama queen. You just can't compare a heated cell and TV, book reading, visitor and letter writing privileges with torture that "leaves scars and bleeding wounds".

I compare sleep deprivation, sanctionising and chicanes every 5 minutes (under the false claim to protect him from himself), a little box 6x12 feet, and massive, very massive limitation of beign able to kill time by having more than just one book available, or doing some work, or more time for TV, or excerscising in his cell (which he is forbidden), to intimidation, mental punishing, and torture.

Yeah right, Just more unsupported speculation from a guy with a known history of bad mouthing my country. Tell me why we should listen to anything you say?

"Bad mouthing your country" can only be assumed by somebody who cannot differ between himself and his country, and who has been taught to be totally uncritical to his superiors. You by this your naivety and blind trust you allow yourself to will inhumane measures and treatements, while nevertehless claiming a certain moiral status and superiority of your nation (that it nevertheless violates). And because the consequence of your acting is such inhumanity and immorality, I also call it not only naivety but cynism and malice and revenge-taking.

The unsupported speculation, as you called it, is a very well supported claim presented by many commentators in the German, British and European press. It is no secret that the US so far has not been able to come up with a charge against Assange that it found to be promising enough so that it would stand, and that the US tries to sue him for espionage,l for which it must be shown that the people feeding him information did so by his order, or by a deal he offered them in advance. But possible that American papers do not print it. The censorship in America regarding Wikileaks seems to have grown since for example the Air force has interruplted all media and internet links on its platforms to all national and foreing newspapers linkling to the Cablegate story.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by August

They're the same thing. "government by the people, for the people and of the people". It's a concept you Europeans with your long history of monarchs and dictators probably just don't seem able to understand.

Maybe we have learned to no longer being so naive to believe that idealistic utopia. You are basing on a theoretical concept - and take that as the excisting reality. But the reality does fail you. You refuse to see that. The truth is your nation is as little democratic anymore as ours, but is as oligarchic and plutocratic like ours. The strings of power are pulled by people who are unavailable for your precious little election comedies or any legitimation procedures in a democratic understanding. For a former soldier who believed he served his country and people it must be difficult to accepot that he only had served the business intzerests of a few profiteers, all soldiers seem to have that problem becasue nobody wnats to believe that he served a purpose that is murky at best. If you serve in the military and risk your life, you want to do that with the conviction that you served the forces of light and honour and justice (as long as you are no mercenary at least). The truth is not welcomed, I totally understand that. But still it is the truth, welcomed or not. You have been betrayed and lied to. The only question that counts now is - how much longer do you buy their lies?

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Yeah, lets bother him to kill some time. Let'S limit water and food a bit, or reduce the oxygene level. Or limit his sleep intervals to harmfully short intervals.

Why do you insist on exaggerating? Nowhere are oxygen levels mentioned. Nowhere does it say his food and water is being limited (he actually has a water source in his cell) and nowhere does it say his sleep intervals are limited either.

You are malicious if seriously trying to make people believe beeing woken up every 5 minutes (if you have slept indeed) is "being given the opportunity to sleep".

Again Skybird. It. Does. NOT. Say. That! Calling me names does not make it so.

Calling that suicide watch is malicous and cynical, too. If you would be forced to exist in such a restricted manner like he is, you would think about suicide, too. So would I, so would most others sooner or later, if not even all people.

Since you exaggerated your conclusions are invalid.

boredcbvoredboredboredbored all day, long, staring at the wall, being hindered to excercise in a cell that even is nothing more than a box.

He gets a daily 1 hour exercise period. He gets TV. He gets up to 15 books at a time. Your exaggeration must be deliberate because your reading comprehension just can't be that bad!

The rest of your post is just more of the same so I won't even bother addressing it.

[Skybird]

No person, while being held for trial, may be subjected to punishment or penalty other than arrest or confinement upon the charges pending against him, nor shall the arrest or confinement imposed upon him be any more rigorous than the circumstances required to insure his presence, but he may be subjected to minor punishment during that period for infractions of discipline.
Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ), Art 13: Punishment Prohibited Before Trial

I fail to see him being treated in conformity with this.

And the 15 books. That is a list he may request. But he is allowed to have only one magaztione or book at a time. He is allowed to consume TV for 1, 2 or 3 hours. He is all day long in solitary confinement, and isolated. He is not allowed to spend time with excercising in his cell oputsiode the 1 hour period. He is not allowed to lay and sleep over the day - he then gets forced to wake up and stand up. He is being asked every five minutes to confirm he is awake and "well".

That is not just custody. That is already penalty, chicane, and psychological pressure. Manning has not been charged so far, I just checked, and no judge has called for these measures.

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

I fail to see him being treated in conformity with this.

That's because you believe your own exaggerations Sky. I'm sorry but there it is...

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by August

They're the same thing. "government by the people, for the people and of the people". It's a concept you Europeans with your long history of monarchs and dictators probably just don't seem able to understand.

Our long history of monarchs and dictators has learned us not to blindly trust the government, and overthrow them if necessary (French revolution, anyone? Republic of the Seven United Netherlands? Russia 1917? Berlin wall?) If there's anything we Europeans understand a lot better than the US, it's that there is no such thing as a "government by the people, for the people and of the people." We have been betrayed too often to believe that anymore. Which is why we don't put blind faith in them like you seem to do.

What revenge? A hope isn't revenge. It isn't even a threat of revenge, or are you implying that I personally have a say in Mannings guilt or innocence?

You are hoping for revenge. He betrayed the US military, and you hope he will "burn for it". How does that not qualify as revenge? As Skybird says, it looks awfully much like you've already made up your mind about his guilt. A suspect is innocent until proven guilty, remember?

Also:

Ever seen this monty python scene? To most Europeans I know the US reaction on Assange an Manning seems awfully much like it.

What exactly has our government done that's so bad according to Wikileaks? Being worried about Indian bio weapon custody? Seeing Russia as run by organized crime? Talking about Ghadaffis large breasted assistant? You people keep implying there is some sort of bombshell dropped by Assange. So far all I see is a few slight embarrassments.

A 1 minute google search shows at least these two things. I'm pretty sure there's much more out there (remember that a massive majority of documents hasn't even been released yet) but really don't want to spend more time searching for things the US has done wrong.

http://mgx.com/blogs/2010/12/07/wiki...cancun-cop-16/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...bles-spying-un

[MaddogK]

I think you're weeping a bit too much for this guy DF, just because his lawyers say he's being mistreated doesn't mean it's true.

Remember, O.J.'s lawyers said he was innocent.