Do We Really Have What It Takes?

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

No.

I know I don't. There are some who actually do it, so they do. Some will, some won't.

But does the game show it one way or the other?

I agree, no.

[subskipper53]

Originally Posted by Armistead

or some noobie,

"Five DD's at 1000 yards, surface and man the guns.."

Even when i started playing SH3 early this year (at the time i knew nothing about submarines except that they dive and shoot torpedoes), i knew a heck of a lot better than that!

[Sailor Steve]

We've had players give "advice" on how to surface behind a Flower-class corvette, because you can sink them with your deck gun before they can turn around to use their single gun.

The reality was that they had a 40mm AA gun back there, and the one time a u-boat is recorded as doing that the AA gun killed the u-boat's deck-gun crew before they could get the gun uncorked.

The u-boat surrendered.

[the_tyrant]

Imagine this:
Somehow, this thread is a time machine
we all go back in time to early 1941, and we are stuck in naval academy
we learn how to use the stuff on the sub(torps, electronics, guns, etc)
Then we get sent to a sub to be ship-mates(assume we know who each other is on Subsim)
we would probably fall apart quite quickly
first of all, we would be screaming for the time compression
than we would be complaining about the bad living conditions. (not to meantion the inconvenience caused by the female members of Subsim-if there is any) After all, i play silent hunter on a comfortable chair, while eating ice cream and rocking along with KISS.
and the biggest problem: leadership
We are used to be an omnipotent power on the sub and that we all think we know what we are doing, so the captain would probably lose control and experience multiple mutinies

Of course, we would all be screaming to head back to port after a week with out showers or air conditioning on a s class boat

[Rockin Robbins]

I have to disagree that we could not do it. When necessity calls a surprising number of people always find that they are ready and able. This would be no exception. I predict that we cannot predict who would qualify, but that a surprising number would be fine. That would include some who think that there is no way they could. It would exclude some that think they would definitely qualify.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

I have to disagree that we could not do it. When necessity calls a surprising number of people always find that they are ready and able. This would be no exception. I predict that we cannot predict who would qualify, but that a surprising number would be fine. That would include some who think that there is no way they could. It would exclude some that think they would definitely qualify.

I agree with Robbins.Times such as WW II or any war bring out the best in people.Ordinary men(and women at times) show extraordinary courage, ability etc when needed.

[razark]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

I have to disagree that we could not do it. When necessity calls a surprising number of people always find that they are ready and able. This would be no exception. I predict that we cannot predict who would qualify, but that a surprising number would be fine. That would include some who think that there is no way they could. It would exclude some that think they would definitely qualify.

While in any group there would be some that could and some that couldn't, and with the proper training, almost any of us here could have a pretty decent idea of what we were doing, simply taking a modern gamer and placing them in command of a WWII Fleet Boat on an actual wartime patrol would be a disaster. Success in the game would not translate to success in real life, and there's a lot more to it than showing some courage.

The captains who started out in command during the war were well trained professionals, with a firm understanding of what their boats could do, and the theory behind how submarines should operate. They trained in tactics and simulated attacks. And then they went on patrol against a real enemy.

And they failed. Many of the early war commanders were awful at the job. They had trained under unrealistic conditions, with unrealistic expectations, using unrealistic tactics. The early captains showed poor results (even taking the poor torpedo situation into account). They missed many opportunities to attack targets because of the way they were used to operating in peacetime and in simulations.

As the early war skippers were taken off the line, they were replaced by their junior officers. These folks had seen over and over again what wasn't working. They knew what had been tried, and they learned from those mistakes. Even with the ongoing torpedo issues, they had higher success against the enemy than the men they replaced.


If we found ourselves on a Fleet Boat in the war, we would be operating on our experiences in the game. We would have false expectations of how things should work, and how to use our boats. We would expect them to behave as in the game. Add in the fact that we are used to commanding the boat by pointing and clicking or poking at a keyboard instead of relying on actual people to carry out our orders and bring us information. We would be like the early failed skippers, and we would quickly be dead or replaced. But whatever junior officers we had might learn from our mistakes.

However, if we were to take sub sim players, and put them through an actual training course like the real officers went through, teach them how to be real naval officers, and how to lead a sub crew, and give them actual hands-on experience operating in one of the boats, would they be able to take command and show better results than if they hadn't spent hours playing SH4? Maybe the ones that didn't wash out first. But without the real training, we'd be almost as lost as any untrained person would be.

[Sailor Steve]

Of course there are some here who could survive the life, and even thrive. People do it all the time.

The original question was whether we could track and sink a ship with the experience we have from playing the game.

[Schwieger]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Of course there are some here who could survive the life, and even thrive. People do it all the time.

The original question was whether we could track and sink a ship with the experience we have from playing the game.

I think I'd feel pretty safe if I was on the ship you're trying to sink... lol Silent Hunter doesn't model modern sub warfare at all, and the WWII combat would still need alot more info than found in game.

[Fish40]

Once again, it seems people think I'm talking about going back in time and running a Fleet Boat during the Second World War. That's not what I meant by "Do we have what it takes" Once again, I'm only referring to the physical accumulation of target data. Could we peer at a radar scope, and know what to do? Would we be able to some degree determine course and speed of a target? I'm willing to bet that we wouldn't be dead on, but we could be in the Ballpark, or at the very least, be playing the same sport! I haven't served in the Armed Forces, but I've been on the water quite a bit due to my love of Saltwater Fishing. My buddy has a boat equipped with radar. Although much more advanced than the units of WW2, reading the scope is nearly the same. You see a blip, and could see it's range by looking at the concentric rings on the scope. There is a range selector, and bearing indicator. What's so different? On an offshore Shark fishing trip once, my buddy and I plotted a course to a wreck useing a chart and paralell rule. Of course we also had GPS and an Auto pilot on the boat, but the course heading was determined by us useing the same tools a navigator during WW2 would use. I'm not a Navigator by any means, so don't start jumping down my throat here!

How many of us since we started playing SH have been on the water for whatever reason, and saw a ship heading towards us. You mean to tell me you never tried to figure it's AOB and bearing? I know I have So yes, we don't have the training of a submariner. Most of us don't know what it's like to be in a combat situation. I know I couldn't give orders to run a Fleetboat, but I bet we could get a basic setup of data on an approaching ship, although not as accurate as a trained sailer, but fairly in the park. That's my opinion.

[fastfed]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

I think just as Microsoft Flight Simulator accelerated the training of jet fighter pilots in spite of differences from the real thing, the Silent Hunter games could make you a better sub sailor.

But no, you couldn't go back in time, jump on a Gato in the middle of the Pacific and show those simpletons a thing or three about running a submarine. There is nothing we do here that they didn't do 60 years before us. There is a lot we can do that they couldn't because our game gives us too much information. There is a lot they could do that we can't because Ubi chose not to model important aspects of real submarines. And instead of saying "I'm taking a chance but the worst that could happen is I start a new career" your life would be in danger. There's no way to simulate that!

I only read this thread up to this part, because from experience I know, playing MFS, actually helps you in getting your Pilots License.. They can take the hours flown from the simulator and apply it towards real simulator hours..

Simulators are one of the best tools in learning about certain machines. Be it planes, tanks, helicopters..

Flying a radio controlled plane is harder than flying a REAL plane, just because of the scaled down model and the 180 degree difference (when the plane is flying toward you)
And even flying radio controlled planes have a nice simulator for the computer.. To learn first.

They didn't have simulators like they do today, back then.. But almost all modern equipment have some sort of virtual simulator and its a marvel of an invention.

That said, I think a simulator for a plane, tank and even helicopter would allow most of us to do the real thing (Under certain conditions)

But a submarine? I highly doubt that. Unless are minds are happy and we are not understress at all, we might have a chance to actually do something good with tracking down some merchants.. But we are not under stress in this game, we are in a stable room, with no pressure at all.


I think adding the real elements of life would have most of us forget what the hell to do.



I always think of things like the OP said. But if I was in WW2, I don't think I would want to be on a submarine, even though its one of my favorite pieces of history, I think I rather choose a battleship, or destroyer.. Probably wouldn't even be on the waters.. Put me into a nice B-25 and call it a day..

I'd be able to jump in one right now and fly and land her..

[Marka Ragnos]

There was a study recently, where they tested gamers for military purposes.

And they all tested higher then non gamers.
This was tested with first person tactical shooters.

Maybe the same go's for submarines.

[fastfed]

Originally Posted by Marka Ragnos

There was a study recently, where they tested gamers for military purposes.

And they all tested higher then non gamers.
This was tested with first person tactical shooters.

Maybe the same go's for submarines.

I read that, and if I am not mistaken its why the game "americas army" was invented, by the Army.. And was used to train soldiers.

[Capt. Teach]

I'm not poseing this question to the guys out there who have Naval experience, because you have an unfair advantage. Do you think with the knowlege we have from playing SH4 that we would actually be able to track and successfully attack a ship?

Well,

As I said before, I believe we would know enough from the game to have a general understanding as to what the real crew was doing around us and why it was happening. I don't believe we could actually perform it.

Why? Here is one example .... the game doesn't take into consideration the difference between grid azimuth and magnetic azimuth. You plot your intercept solution on the map ... and then use those exact figures to set up ... in real life ... epic FAIL. You will miss every time because you didn't convert from grid to magnetic azimuth or ... you didn't account for magnetic declination [All military maps have the magnetic declination difference located in the legend of that map, many times it is a difference of up to and sometimes exceeding 14 degrees. If you are trying to put one under the smoke stack an aiming error of 14 degrees would be rather significant! Just imagine all the fun you would have if you made several measurements from real observation and plotting on a grid map and then back again. That would spell F-U-N in a big way! ]. That is just one example. But do you understand what the real crew is doing? Sure you do. Could you do it yourself and hit? Not without real life experience and further training.