Do We Really Have What It Takes?

[Armistead]

Let's see, we know we couldn't so let's think of the things we SH4 players would say.

"Er, XO, where is the map that shows all the contacts and I need my external cam"

"Here comes a DD, hit the save button"

"That Jap escort is named the Ducimas, kill yourself"

"Where the heck is my Maxoptics, I can't see."

"Where is the stable option, I'm seasick."

"It's winter and all I have is this tee shirt."


or some noobie,

"Five DD's at 1000 yards, surface and man the guns.."

[CCIP]

Hey, those who play 100%, DiD don't do that

But seriously, I would have to acknowledge a bit from both perspectives here - yes, reality is nothing like a game. On the other hand, a game can get you a lot closer than one might assume. There's nothing natural about dozens of men stuck in a steel tube performing complicated maneuvers, and if a game can get you into a mindset where you have a good understanding of how the steel tube works and how best to use it and not use it, that is some serious training. Likewise, on the point of staying calm - you'd be surprised how much games can assist with that. Any high-stress situation is made easier when you are in the mindset where a) you know what is happening; b) your mind and body have a good idea of what needs to be done about it. A simulator definitely gets you at least halfway there, and while it certainly does not get you to the level of discipline required, it does get to a sort of starting point for it. The rest would come from drills in an actual sub. I mean let's face it, any real submariner also has their first real encounter in combat. And as an SH4 player, you know what? You already probably have a better understanding of what to expect from combat than they did.

Real submariners aren't made of different stuff than you are. The real difference is that they are drilled better, and that's not something that some training wouldn't fix in the average SH4 player. Most WWII submariners were average Joes too, and when they enlisted, most of them did not have nearly as much submarine knowledge as you might have. Now, noone would let a submarine nerd sail on a real submarine without training of course - so I think the real question should be "Would you enlist in submarines if you lived in WWII?" And I think the real answer is that guys with as much knowledge as you get from playing SH4 would make pretty darn good candidates.

[Deephunter]

Not SH related, but....Back when I was young and reckless, I took up flying, looking to get a PP license. One of the requirements is (was..??) to fly solo to 2 different airports and return to your "home" airport. I flew the first leg without any problems. The second leg required me to fly over an airport somewhat close to the Mexican border (Edinburg, TX). So I'm flying south, and not getting to Edinburg at the time I'd projected, and one thing I don't want to do is cross into Mexican airspace and then return to US airspace. So I'm getting a little "antsy"...
Then I remember I'd been "flying" instruments on my MS Flight Simulator, so I set up the VOR to intercept the Harlingen VOR (HRL bieng my "home" airport), and sure enough I begin to get its signal. Checking for the radial I need to home in on, I notice the Edinburg airport off in the distance. When I intercept the radial, Edinburg is right under my wings. I turn easterly and fly directly to the head of the runway in Harlingen...
I never told the instructor I "cheated", as this was supposed to be a strictly "visual" flight....

[Armistead]

Yea, sort of like the guy in a small plane, pilot had a heart attack. He was able to land the plane based on years of playing some plane simulator.

[I'm goin' down]

I suppose if I master a jet fighter sim, I could qualify for Top Gun? (If only they had not shut down the base!) Why would I waste the effort? I already have all the medals I need.

I nominate this for most ridiculous post of the year.

[tater]

Without their training, no, not at all the same.

That said, I think that there is one huge, real life benefit from simulation games. Now, if you read a book about submarines (I'm currently rereading the excellent War in the Boats), you actually understand what they are talking about. You "get" the situations you never would have before.

As a kid, my area of interest was WW2 aircraft, not subs. I read every book I could get my hands on, and loved them—but until I became competent in games like WarBirds, I had never really "gotten" the gist of it. After those games, I actually visualize what is going on in RL descriptions, and even see the pitfalls of some things telegraphed...

Simulations are a huge boon to understanding history intuitively.

[WernherVonTrapp]

I'm certainly no authority on the subject but, somehow, envisioning myself commanding a WWII sub strictly upon the premise of my experience with SHIV? Well, it's an entertaining thought at best. I realize that computerized simulations have permeated the various branches of today's military training but, somewhere in that process, the trainee has to operate the real thing before he is qualified. Usually, that actual operation spans more than just a few hours hands-on.
So, in my opinion, I'd have to offer up a definitive, "No".

[nappy]

I know who you are.. muahaha

nappy-still-hanging-around-at-off-topics

Originally Posted by tater

As a kid, my area of interest was WW2 aircraft, not subs. I read every book I could get my hands on, and loved them—but until I became competent in games like WarBirds, I had never really "gotten" the gist of it..

[subskipper53]

Originally Posted by Armistead

or some noobie,

"Five DD's at 1000 yards, surface and man the guns.."

Even when i started playing SH3 early this year (at the time i knew nothing about submarines except that they dive and shoot torpedoes), i knew a heck of a lot better than that!

[Sailor Steve]

We've had players give "advice" on how to surface behind a Flower-class corvette, because you can sink them with your deck gun before they can turn around to use their single gun.

The reality was that they had a 40mm AA gun back there, and the one time a u-boat is recorded as doing that the AA gun killed the u-boat's deck-gun crew before they could get the gun uncorked.

The u-boat surrendered.

[the_tyrant]

Imagine this:
Somehow, this thread is a time machine
we all go back in time to early 1941, and we are stuck in naval academy
we learn how to use the stuff on the sub(torps, electronics, guns, etc)
Then we get sent to a sub to be ship-mates(assume we know who each other is on Subsim)
we would probably fall apart quite quickly
first of all, we would be screaming for the time compression
than we would be complaining about the bad living conditions. (not to meantion the inconvenience caused by the female members of Subsim-if there is any) After all, i play silent hunter on a comfortable chair, while eating ice cream and rocking along with KISS.
and the biggest problem: leadership
We are used to be an omnipotent power on the sub and that we all think we know what we are doing, so the captain would probably lose control and experience multiple mutinies

Of course, we would all be screaming to head back to port after a week with out showers or air conditioning on a s class boat

[Rockin Robbins]

I have to disagree that we could not do it. When necessity calls a surprising number of people always find that they are ready and able. This would be no exception. I predict that we cannot predict who would qualify, but that a surprising number would be fine. That would include some who think that there is no way they could. It would exclude some that think they would definitely qualify.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

I have to disagree that we could not do it. When necessity calls a surprising number of people always find that they are ready and able. This would be no exception. I predict that we cannot predict who would qualify, but that a surprising number would be fine. That would include some who think that there is no way they could. It would exclude some that think they would definitely qualify.

I agree with Robbins.Times such as WW II or any war bring out the best in people.Ordinary men(and women at times) show extraordinary courage, ability etc when needed.

[razark]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

I have to disagree that we could not do it. When necessity calls a surprising number of people always find that they are ready and able. This would be no exception. I predict that we cannot predict who would qualify, but that a surprising number would be fine. That would include some who think that there is no way they could. It would exclude some that think they would definitely qualify.

While in any group there would be some that could and some that couldn't, and with the proper training, almost any of us here could have a pretty decent idea of what we were doing, simply taking a modern gamer and placing them in command of a WWII Fleet Boat on an actual wartime patrol would be a disaster. Success in the game would not translate to success in real life, and there's a lot more to it than showing some courage.

The captains who started out in command during the war were well trained professionals, with a firm understanding of what their boats could do, and the theory behind how submarines should operate. They trained in tactics and simulated attacks. And then they went on patrol against a real enemy.

And they failed. Many of the early war commanders were awful at the job. They had trained under unrealistic conditions, with unrealistic expectations, using unrealistic tactics. The early captains showed poor results (even taking the poor torpedo situation into account). They missed many opportunities to attack targets because of the way they were used to operating in peacetime and in simulations.

As the early war skippers were taken off the line, they were replaced by their junior officers. These folks had seen over and over again what wasn't working. They knew what had been tried, and they learned from those mistakes. Even with the ongoing torpedo issues, they had higher success against the enemy than the men they replaced.


If we found ourselves on a Fleet Boat in the war, we would be operating on our experiences in the game. We would have false expectations of how things should work, and how to use our boats. We would expect them to behave as in the game. Add in the fact that we are used to commanding the boat by pointing and clicking or poking at a keyboard instead of relying on actual people to carry out our orders and bring us information. We would be like the early failed skippers, and we would quickly be dead or replaced. But whatever junior officers we had might learn from our mistakes.

However, if we were to take sub sim players, and put them through an actual training course like the real officers went through, teach them how to be real naval officers, and how to lead a sub crew, and give them actual hands-on experience operating in one of the boats, would they be able to take command and show better results than if they hadn't spent hours playing SH4? Maybe the ones that didn't wash out first. But without the real training, we'd be almost as lost as any untrained person would be.

[Sailor Steve]

Of course there are some here who could survive the life, and even thrive. People do it all the time.

The original question was whether we could track and sink a ship with the experience we have from playing the game.