Explain something about the online DRM buisness model. - Page 3

mookiemookie · 04-16-10, 08:38 AM

I'm as sick and tired of DRM threads as anyone, but I think this one has been pretty well behaved and ideologue-free. It's just a discussion of the business and economic model, as SteamWake said. Not a discussion of it's moral or ethical merits. So my personal opinion is I'm ok with it.

I'm not very clear as to how it would work if the same servers were authenticating multiple games. That might be what screws up my prediction - if the marginal server load for authenticating SH5 is a pittance because you're already running it on the authentication server for the latest and greatest Assassin's Creed game, then I guess you could theoretically keep it going for as long as you like without eating into the profits of the SH product line.

janh · 04-16-10, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

I'm not very clear as to how it would work if the same servers were authenticating multiple games. That might be what screws up my prediction - if the marginal server load for authenticating SH5 is a pittance because you're already running it on the authentication server for the latest and greatest Assassin's Creed game, then I guess you could theoretically keep it going for as long as you like without eating into the profits of the SH product line.

I recall I read that they are using the same servers for multiple games already, i.e. that's why there were outages and playing problems for Silent Hunter V gamers when Assassins Creed II was releases, and less so, but too when Settlers 7 came out. I think they have much underestimated the data transfer on release days, as well as weekend in their initial planning of their server infrastructure. This is likely also the reason why there were serious problems on the first two weekends (peak playing times) with Silent Hunter V, since the whole DDoS stuff was never confirmed by any 3rd party other than Ubisoft.

I assume the DRM servers cost them dearly, not only in the upkeep, upgrading and maintainance, but also in customers. As we will hopefully see confirmed with their sales reports of the next 2 or 3 quarters. I really dislike this kind of business model where legal customers are worse off than pirates, and logically the latter would be the best thing to do if you don't want to screw yourself.

What I can't understand is why the Software industry still follows the opposite policy that music and movie industries have by now adopted about DRM: It served to increase losses by driving off legal customers, and now most companies refrain from intrusive DRM that limits the use of your MP3s etc. Instead, they have started to refocus on deliviring quality again and the flood of nasty poor quality boy bands and braindead Hollywood movies that only cost fortunes for worthless 3D effects has been reduced.
Why, dear Ubisoft, are you planning the exact oppisite: DRM & shorter development cycles, meaning even less will be delivered for the same price? This only can go wrong, and it will be all but pirates: bad marketing and strategy decisions.

Bilge_Rat · 04-16-10, 09:34 AM

everyone will be happy when they remove DRM.

daft · 04-16-10, 09:40 AM

They are using servers running DRM software that really couldn't give a rats ass about what game it is that the server has to authenticate. All they care about is the interface the game uses to talk to the server with. That means there are no hard SHV servers that can only be used with SHV (that would be crazy) but servers that can deal with any game implementing the correct interface to talk to the server side DRM software. So in theory they can scale their server park up or down by adding more server (when they have lots of DRM-protected games on the market) or down (when they have few DRM-titles on the shelves or old games become less popular). This is most probably done with virtualization, spooling up new virtual servers as needed and shutting down others as needed. If UBI's sales decline, they will probably have to cut back on staff, but that would also mean less of a load for the authentication servers to deal with, so see it as natural selection if you will.

TwistedAdonis · 04-16-10, 09:59 AM

Apropos of nothing perhaps.

It strikes me that World of Warcraft (and all MMORPGs) has always online requirements built into the gameplay and it has a bazillion players. Perhaps those without a decent connection or those on the road with a laptop are too small a demographic (revenue-wise) for a modern company to worry about.

Zedi · 04-16-10, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwistedAdonis

Apropos of nothing perhaps.

It strikes me that World of Warcraft (and all MMORPGs) has always online requirements built into the gameplay and it has a bazillion players. Perhaps those without a decent connection or those on the road with a laptop are too small a demographic (revenue-wise) for a modern company to worry about.

Is true, but there is a massive difference. WoW is build to be online, to join an online community and do stuff together. That's why is a mmorpg. But SH5 is solo play and we get s*** being online. Actually, SH is the only game that has no rewards from this drm system. Those who play AC2 have some awesome rewards, like new maps and content, cloth and all kinda stuff that really makes you to get over the drm thing and have total fun with the game. I mean.. oke, I have to play online, but at least is not in vain.. my game gets unlocked as I play revealing nice surprises, content and rewards. We, get sh1t.

To be honest, first time when I heard about SH5 and drm.. I tough.. oke, if this is not a joke, then there should be some awesome rewards just to keep you play connected. I was hoping that there will be a massive multiplayer option, but the multiplayer is a total fail. SH5 gets no attention at all, patch is delayed without any real explication, nobody from their side keep contact with us, the support is a total joke and this drm crap is no use for us in any way. Few sub skin and 2 map as a reward being online non-stop when playin.. c'mon. We are sailing in dark here.

Anyway, even so I will not loose my energy in anti drm bitching as this is my smallest problem with the game. There are many other problems with SH5, drm is on the bottom of the list.

Arclight · 04-17-10, 03:18 AM

I'm no more excited about the Uplay crap for AC2 than for SH5.

New maps? Got new missions for SH5. New clothes? Got new skins for SH5.

I take it you don't own AC2?

tommyk · 04-17-10, 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sgt. Emren

You sell add-ons. Pipeline extension. Extend SHV to 1945. Make SHV Pacific. Etc.

I think that will be the way. just look at the best mods, rebuild them into DLC together with new ships and what you said... there is no need to ever remove the drm since when nobody sends requests to the servers, the costs are low...

Der Teddy Bar · 04-17-10, 03:58 AM

SteamWake,

The always online business model is about forcing the gamer to buy new version of the software every 12 to 18 months and to restrict 2nd hand sales which is your legal right.

EA is as always the leader in all things DRM and their take the piss out of the paying customer web page called "Online Service Updates" outlines what you can expect of Ubisoft.

Ubisoft has proven again and again they have customer focus will I am sure cut SH5 free after a year with no patch to enable people to play it offline.

Look at how many games a only a year or two old and even the older ones are mostly less than 4 with only a handful older than that.

I have never read a more patronising piece of garbage in my life as this below.

As background information, the games scheduled for shutdown in March and April 2010 represent less than 0.3% of all peak online players across all EA titles. Despite some people's perception, there is a lot of behind-the-scenes work involved with keeping these older games up and running. We would rather our hard-working engineering and IT staff focus on keeping a positive experience for the other 99.7% of customers playing our more popular games. These decisions to retire games is never easy. The EA development teams and operational staff pour their hearts into these games almost as much as the customers playing them and it is hard to see one retired. We hope you have gotten many hours of enjoyment out of the games and we appreciate your ongoing patronage.

May 11th, 2010 Online Service Shutdown
FIFA 08 for PC
Tiger Woods PGA Tour 07 for Playstation 3 and Xbox 360
Tiger Woods PGA Tour 08 for PC, Playstation 3 and Xbox 360
UEFA Euro 2008 for PC

April 15, 2010 Online Service Shutdown
Burnout 3: Takedown for PlayStation 2
Army of Two for PlayStation 3 (Asia only)

Additionally, the shutdown of Xbox LIVE for Original Xbox consoles and games (scheduled for April 15, 2010) will retire online services for the following titles:

Battlefield 2: Modern Combat for Xbox
Burnout 3: Takedown for Xbox
Madden NFL 09 for Xbox

Previously Shut Down Online Service
Arena Football for PlayStation 2 and Xbox
Arena Football™: Road to Glory for PlayStation 2
Armies of Exigo for PC
Burnout Revenge for PlayStation 2 and Xbox
Burnout™ Dominator for PlayStation Portable
Def Jam for PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360
FIFA 2005 for PC, PlayStation 2 and Xbox
FIFA 06 for PC, PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable, Xbox and Xbox 360
FIFA 07 for PC, PlayStation Portable, PlayStation 2 and Xbox
FIFA World Cup 2006 for PC, PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable, Xbox and Xbox 360
Facebreaker for Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3
Fantasy Football 09 for Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3
Fight Night Round 2 for PlayStation 2 and Xbox
Fight Night Round 3 for PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable and Xbox
Godfather for PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360
Goldeneye: Rogue Agent for Nintendo Game Cube, PlayStation 2 and Xbox
Lord of the Rings: Conquest for PC, PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360
MVP Baseball™ 2005 for PC, PlayStation 2 and Xbox
MVP™ 07 NCAA® Baseball for PlayStation 2 and Xbox
Madden NFL 05 for PC, PlayStation 2 and Xbox
Madden NFL 06 for PC, PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable, Xbox and Xbox 360
Madden NFL 07 for PC, PlayStation 2, PlayStation 3, PlayStation Portable, Xbox and Xbox 360
Madden NFL 08 for PC, PlayStation 2, PlayStation 3, PlayStation Portable, Wii, Xbox and Xbox 360
Marvel Nemesis: Rise of the Imperfects for PlayStation 2 and Xbox
Medal of Honor Pacific Assault™ for PC
Medal of Honor Rising Sun for PlayStation 2
Mercenaries 2: World in Flames for PC
NASCAR® 05: Chase for the Cup™ for PC, PlayStation 2 and Xbox
NASCAR® 06: Total Team Control for PlayStation 2 and Xbox
NASCAR® 07 for PlayStation 2, PlayStation 3, Xbox and Xbox 360
NASCAR® 08 for PlayStation 2, PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360
NASCAR® 09 for PlayStation 2, PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 (Europe Only)
NBA Live 05 for PC, PlayStation 2 and Xbox
NBA Live 06 for PC, PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable, Xbox and Xbox 360
NBA Live 07 for PC, PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable, Xbox and Xbox 360
NBA Live 08 for PC, PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable and Wii
NBA Live 09 for Wii (Europe only)
NBA Street (2007) for PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360
NBA Street V3 for PlayStation 2 and Xbox
NCAA® Football 05 for PlayStation 2 and Xbox
NCAA® Football 06 for PlayStation 2 and Xbox
NCAA® Football 07 for PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable and Xbox
NCAA® Football 08 for PlayStation 2 and Xbox
NCAA® Football 09 for PlayStation 2
NCAA® March Madness 06 for PlayStation 2 and Xbox
NCAA® March Madness™ 2005 for PlayStation 2 and Xbox
NCAA® March Madness® 07 for PlayStation 2, Xbox and Xbox 360
NFL Head Coach for PC, PlayStation 2, Xbox
NFL Street 2: Unleashed for PlayStation 2 and Xbox
NFL Street 3 for PlayStation 2
NFL Tour for PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360
NHL® 05 for PC, PlayStation 2 and Xbox
NHL® 06 for PC, PlayStation 2 and Xbox
NHL® 07 for PC, PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable, Xbox and Xbox 360
NHL® 08 for PC
NHL® 08 for PlayStation 2
Need for Speed: Carbon for PlayStation Portable
Need for Speed: ProStreet for PlayStation Portable
Need for Speed: Underground for PlayStation 2
Need for Speed: Underground 2 for PC, PlayStation 2 and Xbox
Need for Speed: Most Wanted for PlayStation Portable and Xbox
Simpsons for PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360
Tiger Woods PGA TOUR® 05 for PC, PlayStation 2 and Xbox
Tiger Woods PGA TOUR® 06 for PC, PlayStation 2, Xbox and Xbox 360
Tiger Woods PGA TOUR® 07 for PC, PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable and Xbox
Tiger Woods PGA TOUR® 08 for PlayStation 2 and PlayStation Portable
TimeSplitters 3: Future Perfect for Xbox and PlayStation 2
Total Club Manager 06 for PlayStation 2
UEFA Champions League™ 2004-2005 for PC, PlayStation 2 and Xbox
UEFA Champions League™ 2006-2007 for PlayStation 2 and PlayStation Portable
UEFA Champions League™ 07 for PC and Xbox 360

BarjackU977 · 04-17-10, 04:16 AM

All the essence is in this sentence.
Of course, nobody would complain about having to be online to play MP. Except those few who value LAN games (there are still such people) without Internet connection. Problem with LAN is that pirates can always abuse this feature for online games too. That's why it often got cut from MP, leaving Internet games only.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magnum

Is true, but there is a massive difference. WoW is build to be online, to join an online community and do stuff together. That's why is a mmorpg. But SH5 is solo play and we get s*** being online.

Nicolas · 04-17-10, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteamWake

How... do you continue to pay for those ongoing costs once the sales of the product begin to dry up?

Easy, they will release a patch to play offline. I'm 90% sure of that.
Was a bad move. Internet its not reliable like your hard drive, and some people dont even have internet...

04-17-10, 07:15 AM

Thanks Teddy for your excellent posts. You've managed to capture the reality of DRM perfectly.

An excellent well debated topic...mostly

robbo180265 · 04-17-10, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uber Gruber

Thanks Teddy for your excellent posts. You've managed to capture the reality of DRM perfectly.

An excellent well debated topic...mostly

I agree - a very interesting and well debated thread.

I also agree with Teddy, I would have more faith in a non drm patch being released once the servers go offline, if UBI had shown any signs of a decent customer service.

Remember we heard about the patch delay from a German forum

Spartan · 04-17-10, 10:04 AM

Not much of a debate. DRM = epic fail.

If Ubi has not released a DRM removal patch for SH3 or SH4 what makes people think one will be released for SH5?

Arclight · 04-17-10, 10:29 AM

Copy protection was removed from both SH3 and SH4.

04-16-10, 08:38 AM	#31
mookiemookie Navy Seal Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 9,404 Downloads: 105 Uploads: 1	I'm as sick and tired of DRM threads as anyone, but I think this one has been pretty well behaved and ideologue-free. It's just a discussion of the business and economic model, as SteamWake said. Not a discussion of it's moral or ethical merits. So my personal opinion is I'm ok with it. I'm not very clear as to how it would work if the same servers were authenticating multiple games. That might be what screws up my prediction - if the marginal server load for authenticating SH5 is a pittance because you're already running it on the authentication server for the latest and greatest Assassin's Creed game, then I guess you could theoretically keep it going for as long as you like without eating into the profits of the SH product line. __________________ They don’t think it be like it is, but it do. Want more U-boat Kaleun portraits for your SH3 Commander Profiles? Download the SH3 Commander Portrait Pack here.

04-16-10, 09:34 AM	#33
Bilge_Rat Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: standing watch... Posts: 3,855 Downloads: 344 Uploads: 0	everyone will be happy when they remove DRM. __________________

04-16-10, 09:40 AM	#34
daft Captain Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 493 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	They are using servers running DRM software that really couldn't give a rats ass about what game it is that the server has to authenticate. All they care about is the interface the game uses to talk to the server with. That means there are no hard SHV servers that can only be used with SHV (that would be crazy) but servers that can deal with any game implementing the correct interface to talk to the server side DRM software. So in theory they can scale their server park up or down by adding more server (when they have lots of DRM-protected games on the market) or down (when they have few DRM-titles on the shelves or old games become less popular). This is most probably done with virtualization, spooling up new virtual servers as needed and shutting down others as needed. If UBI's sales decline, they will probably have to cut back on staff, but that would also mean less of a load for the authentication servers to deal with, so see it as natural selection if you will. __________________ And God said: \"Let there be Narrowband!\"

04-17-10, 03:18 AM	#37
Arclight Navy Seal Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Land of windmills, tulips, wooden shoes and cheese. Lots of cheese. Posts: 8,467 Downloads: 53 Uploads: 10	I'm no more excited about the Uplay crap for AC2 than for SH5. New maps? Got new missions for SH5. New clothes? Got new skins for SH5. I take it you don't own AC2? __________________ Contritium praecedit superbia.

04-17-10, 10:29 AM	#45
Arclight Navy Seal Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Land of windmills, tulips, wooden shoes and cheese. Lots of cheese. Posts: 8,467 Downloads: 53 Uploads: 10	Copy protection was removed from both SH3 and SH4. __________________ Contritium praecedit superbia.

04-16-10, 09:59 AM	#35
TwistedAdonis Watch Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London, UK Posts: 26 Downloads: 18 Uploads: 0	Apropos of nothing perhaps. It strikes me that World of Warcraft (and all MMORPGs) has always online requirements built into the gameplay and it has a bazillion players. Perhaps those without a decent connection or those on the road with a laptop are too small a demographic (revenue-wise) for a modern company to worry about.

04-17-10, 03:58 AM	#39
Der Teddy Bar Blade Master Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,388 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	SteamWake, The always online business model is about forcing the gamer to buy new version of the software every 12 to 18 months and to restrict 2nd hand sales which is your legal right. EA is as always the leader in all things DRM and their take the piss out of the paying customer web page called "Online Service Updates" outlines what you can expect of Ubisoft. Ubisoft has proven again and again they have customer focus will I am sure cut SH5 free after a year with no patch to enable people to play it offline. Look at how many games a only a year or two old and even the older ones are mostly less than 4 with only a handful older than that. I have never read a more patronising piece of garbage in my life as this below. As background information, the games scheduled for shutdown in March and April 2010 represent less than 0.3% of all peak online players across all EA titles. Despite some people's perception, there is a lot of behind-the-scenes work involved with keeping these older games up and running. We would rather our hard-working engineering and IT staff focus on keeping a positive experience for the other 99.7% of customers playing our more popular games. These decisions to retire games is never easy. The EA development teams and operational staff pour their hearts into these games almost as much as the customers playing them and it is hard to see one retired. We hope you have gotten many hours of enjoyment out of the games and we appreciate your ongoing patronage. May 11th, 2010 Online Service Shutdown FIFA 08 for PC Tiger Woods PGA Tour 07 for Playstation 3 and Xbox 360 Tiger Woods PGA Tour 08 for PC, Playstation 3 and Xbox 360 UEFA Euro 2008 for PC April 15, 2010 Online Service Shutdown Burnout 3: Takedown for PlayStation 2 Army of Two for PlayStation 3 (Asia only) Additionally, the shutdown of Xbox LIVE for Original Xbox consoles and games (scheduled for April 15, 2010) will retire online services for the following titles: Battlefield 2: Modern Combat for Xbox Burnout 3: Takedown for Xbox Madden NFL 09 for Xbox Previously Shut Down Online Service Arena Football for PlayStation 2 and Xbox Arena Football™: Road to Glory for PlayStation 2 Armies of Exigo for PC Burnout Revenge for PlayStation 2 and Xbox Burnout™ Dominator for PlayStation Portable Def Jam for PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 FIFA 2005 for PC, PlayStation 2 and Xbox FIFA 06 for PC, PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable, Xbox and Xbox 360 FIFA 07 for PC, PlayStation Portable, PlayStation 2 and Xbox FIFA World Cup 2006 for PC, PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable, Xbox and Xbox 360 Facebreaker for Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 Fantasy Football 09 for Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 Fight Night Round 2 for PlayStation 2 and Xbox Fight Night Round 3 for PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable and Xbox Godfather for PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 Goldeneye: Rogue Agent for Nintendo Game Cube, PlayStation 2 and Xbox Lord of the Rings: Conquest for PC, PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 MVP Baseball™ 2005 for PC, PlayStation 2 and Xbox MVP™ 07 NCAA® Baseball for PlayStation 2 and Xbox Madden NFL 05 for PC, PlayStation 2 and Xbox Madden NFL 06 for PC, PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable, Xbox and Xbox 360 Madden NFL 07 for PC, PlayStation 2, PlayStation 3, PlayStation Portable, Xbox and Xbox 360 Madden NFL 08 for PC, PlayStation 2, PlayStation 3, PlayStation Portable, Wii, Xbox and Xbox 360 Marvel Nemesis: Rise of the Imperfects for PlayStation 2 and Xbox Medal of Honor Pacific Assault™ for PC Medal of Honor Rising Sun for PlayStation 2 Mercenaries 2: World in Flames for PC NASCAR® 05: Chase for the Cup™ for PC, PlayStation 2 and Xbox NASCAR® 06: Total Team Control for PlayStation 2 and Xbox NASCAR® 07 for PlayStation 2, PlayStation 3, Xbox and Xbox 360 NASCAR® 08 for PlayStation 2, PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 NASCAR® 09 for PlayStation 2, PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 (Europe Only) NBA Live 05 for PC, PlayStation 2 and Xbox NBA Live 06 for PC, PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable, Xbox and Xbox 360 NBA Live 07 for PC, PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable, Xbox and Xbox 360 NBA Live 08 for PC, PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable and Wii NBA Live 09 for Wii (Europe only) NBA Street (2007) for PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 NBA Street V3 for PlayStation 2 and Xbox NCAA® Football 05 for PlayStation 2 and Xbox NCAA® Football 06 for PlayStation 2 and Xbox NCAA® Football 07 for PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable and Xbox NCAA® Football 08 for PlayStation 2 and Xbox NCAA® Football 09 for PlayStation 2 NCAA® March Madness 06 for PlayStation 2 and Xbox NCAA® March Madness™ 2005 for PlayStation 2 and Xbox NCAA® March Madness® 07 for PlayStation 2, Xbox and Xbox 360 NFL Head Coach for PC, PlayStation 2, Xbox NFL Street 2: Unleashed for PlayStation 2 and Xbox NFL Street 3 for PlayStation 2 NFL Tour for PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 NHL® 05 for PC, PlayStation 2 and Xbox NHL® 06 for PC, PlayStation 2 and Xbox NHL® 07 for PC, PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable, Xbox and Xbox 360 NHL® 08 for PC NHL® 08 for PlayStation 2 Need for Speed: Carbon for PlayStation Portable Need for Speed: ProStreet for PlayStation Portable Need for Speed: Underground for PlayStation 2 Need for Speed: Underground 2 for PC, PlayStation 2 and Xbox Need for Speed: Most Wanted for PlayStation Portable and Xbox Simpsons for PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 Tiger Woods PGA TOUR® 05 for PC, PlayStation 2 and Xbox Tiger Woods PGA TOUR® 06 for PC, PlayStation 2, Xbox and Xbox 360 Tiger Woods PGA TOUR® 07 for PC, PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable and Xbox Tiger Woods PGA TOUR® 08 for PlayStation 2 and PlayStation Portable TimeSplitters 3: Future Perfect for Xbox and PlayStation 2 Total Club Manager 06 for PlayStation 2 UEFA Champions League™ 2004-2005 for PC, PlayStation 2 and Xbox UEFA Champions League™ 2006-2007 for PlayStation 2 and PlayStation Portable UEFA Champions League™ 07 for PC and Xbox 360

04-17-10, 07:15 AM	#42
Uber Gruber Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Thanks Teddy for your excellent posts. You've managed to capture the reality of DRM perfectly. An excellent well debated topic...mostly

04-17-10, 10:04 AM	#44
Spartan Sailor man Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Tokyo, Japan Posts: 50 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Not much of a debate. DRM = epic fail. If Ubi has not released a DRM removal patch for SH3 or SH4 what makes people think one will be released for SH5?