Sea Ice Growing at Fastest Pace on Record

[Morts]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

That is true, since you keep proving me right. Your ignorance has allowed others to sell you on something akin to the moon being cheese, and you're happy about it. Glad you pointed that out.

-S

ofcourse im being sold crap, since im an atheist and im a "commie"...im bound to fail:rotfl:

[Biggles]

Originally Posted by Morts

ofcourse im being sold crap, since im an atheist and im a "commie"...im bound to fail:rotfl:

Not to mention that you're danish

[Frame57]

Originally Posted by Stealth Hunter

Well, evolution is still controversial, so Creation must be true...

Mendel's law is the only practical answer to the theory of evolution...

[CaptainHaplo]

At no point did I ever state that the US should not make changes - what I said was that if your expecting us ALL to do so at the whim of some theory called global warming - your smoking crack. I have no problem with being involved in a solution, and if someone wants to bring up the world wars - in WW2 we were heavily involved well before 1942 thank you. Oh but of course us being the "evil USA" lets just concentrate on the negative - and totally disregard that we bailed europe's A$$ out of the fire not once but twice - with the blood of American men. And you people claim that it is WE who are "self-absorbed" and self-righteous.

Skybird, you actually do well proving my point - the billions of people in the far east are not willing to change their patterns of behavior. Yet you seem intent on making us Americans the "bad guys" for not changing our own habits. Somehow its "ok" to give them a pass, but definitely can't give it to those dastardly Americans!

Now - I again turn to point out solutions. The sulpher-oxide option is but one - and no one has brought up any others. So tell me - who would be the first to fund and work on such an effort? Probably us "EVIL AMERICANS". Who in the world would be willing and able to devote the manufacturing base needed to make such a thing a reality? China wouldn't - Russia wouldn't - the EU can't (hell you all can't even agree on being one entity half the time, much less work together on something that will require manufacturing teamwork.). So who are you gonna call on when your little half measures do nothing more than inconvienence your lives, yet solve nothing? That's right, you will look to the World Leader - the one you have sat here and badmouthed so much, and want help. We will give it - and be vilified still. That is simply the way it is when your the "top dog" - everyone is jealous and since they can't pass you fairly, they want to drag you down. Well - sorry, but many of us Americans just ain't having it.

So I have challenged you 3 times now Skybird, to talk solutions. You want me to change my way of living - yet you can show NO proof that doing so will actually make a difference. Actually, you proved in your last post that it would NOT change anything. So show me why I should make changes - show me how those changes will make a diffence - or stop trying to make it out like I am some selfish person because I don't want to act in a way "you" approve of when it won't matter anyway. Also - either step up and talk solutions - or can you not do so? After all - solving problems is alot harder than pointing fingers.....

And for the record - I have 2 children that I work my tail off to provide for - not only the necessities but a superior education - so that they can truly appreciate and continue to conserve a wonderful planet. I hope to see them enjoy it - so I look for real workable answers - not feel good fairy foo foo claptrap that does nothing but give ignorant people a sense of self-importance.

Or - to put it the challenge of talking real solutions in the terms of an old American saying - "Put up, or (hush) up.".

[baggygreen]

I'm sceptical of the global warming/climate change/whatever is next crowd, but I think my reasons are sound. bear with me if you please, while I attempt to explain my thoughts and position as clearly as I can.

The earth is essentially a living thing. the core moves, it is not solid. The plates on which land sits move around and grind into each other, sending some plates down to the core where they melt, and forcing others up, into new mountain ranges. relatively soon in a geological scale, Oz will be smack bang across the equator and joined to PNG! My point here is that it is a constantly changing environment.

This changing environment can be shown, for example, by looking to central oz - the arid, desert, 'red centre' of oz was a vast inland sea. Now it is among the most inhospitable places we can find. At some point in history, that sea retreated to the current coastline, leaving dry land in its place and (as best we can tell) permanently altering the type of landscape there.

Now, the climate is not immune to these changes. We have ice ages, it is logical to assume we have the opposite. Cyclical. Up and down. We obviously have no data as to how warm the earth can get, however there are tantalising little hints that emerge from time to time. For example, near where I live is fairly dry bushland. However, there is evidence that around 60,000 years ago or so, the region more closely resembled a sub-tropical rainforest. Another example is scientists drilling ice cores in a glacier in greenland found evidence that at one point Greenland was quite heavily wooded with your average north american pines. Most interesting point? The glacier was still there! it survived to some extent or other at a time when greenland was a heavily wooded location. Obviously we don't know to what extent, but it did exist.

We have no idea how long it took to become that, nor how long it took for the earth to enter (or leave) the last ice age. There simply isn't the data. We're flooded with reports about how quickly the world is warming up, and within a hundred years it might have risen by a whole degree celsius. For all we know, this could be the slowest temperature rise on record. For all we know, temperatures in the past rose 5 or 10 degrees celsius. My point here is we just don't know.

Now, before people jump on my back, I'm all for green change. I see no point in senselessly wasting limited resources. Show me a viable hybrid (or all electric) option for a car, within a reasonable price range, and you better believe i'll buy it. However I am completely opposed to the amount of rubbish being rammed down our throats. Stop logging? What shall we write on, sleep on, build with, eat from, sit on..... Stop eating cows?!? Humans are omnivorous creatures I'm afraid, neither our teeth nor our gastrointestinal tract are designed for a diet of rabbit food.

Promoting cleaner energy is in my opinion a good thing, wind power especially - believe it or not, making solar panels leaves an awful mess in the earth.. When my home is complete, it will have a 4000l water tank hooked up to the toilets and laundry, there will be a solar panel on the roof for hot water (standard with the home) and I shall be installing a small wind turbine similar to the one subman posted a while back. Partly these measures are for selfish reasons - I hate the rising costs, but the cleaner benefits overall are doing no harm to myself nor the environment.

What it comes down to in my opinion, is this: ramming guesswork down our throats is wrong. Enacting new laws and taxes, which will drastically affect peoples lives, based on guesswork is very wrong. The earth has remained through enormous impacts, countless meteorites, nuclear explosions, plagues, volcanic eruptions, solar flares.... almost anything that can be thrown at it. The earth will remain regardless of how we treat it, regardless of how long we stay on it, and pretty much the only thing that will destroy it is the death throes of our sun.

[CaptainHaplo]

Amen brother! I have no problem going "green" when there is a valid reason, but I won't make changes just to allow my freedoms to be slowly restricted.

[Morts]

Originally Posted by Biggles

Not to mention that you're danish

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Safe-Keeper]

Yawn.

It's SUBMAN. Originality has never been part of his modus operandi.

Well, evolution is still controversial, so Creation must be true...

Don't you just love the logic?

1. I think it was Jason who stole the cookie from my cookie jar.
2. I'm not exactly sure how he did it.
3. Therefore, it must've been God!

[VipertheSniper]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

sulpher-oxide

You think that's gonna do no harm? How about acid rain?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

At no point did I ever state that the US should not make changes - what I said was that if your expecting us ALL to do so at the whim of some theory called global warming - your smoking crack. I have no problem with being involved in a solution, and if someone wants to bring up the world wars - in WW2 we were heavily involved well before 1942 thank you. Oh but of course us being the "evil USA" lets just concentrate on the negative - and totally disregard that we bailed europe's A$$ out of the fire not once but twice - with the blood of American men. And you people claim that it is WE who are "self-absorbed" and self-righteous.

Skybird, you actually do well proving my point - the billions of people in the far east are not willing to change their patterns of behavior. Yet you seem intent on making us Americans the "bad guys" for not changing our own habits. Somehow its "ok" to give them a pass, but definitely can't give it to those dastardly Americans!

Now - I again turn to point out solutions. The sulpher-oxide option is but one - and no one has brought up any others. So tell me - who would be the first to fund and work on such an effort? Probably us "EVIL AMERICANS". Who in the world would be willing and able to devote the manufacturing base needed to make such a thing a reality? China wouldn't - Russia wouldn't - the EU can't (hell you all can't even agree on being one entity half the time, much less work together on something that will require manufacturing teamwork.). So who are you gonna call on when your little half measures do nothing more than inconvienence your lives, yet solve nothing? That's right, you will look to the World Leader - the one you have sat here and badmouthed so much, and want help. We will give it - and be vilified still. That is simply the way it is when your the "top dog" - everyone is jealous and since they can't pass you fairly, they want to drag you down. Well - sorry, but many of us Americans just ain't having it.

So I have challenged you 3 times now Skybird, to talk solutions. You want me to change my way of living - yet you can show NO proof that doing so will actually make a difference. Actually, you proved in your last post that it would NOT change anything. So show me why I should make changes - show me how those changes will make a diffence - or stop trying to make it out like I am some selfish person because I don't want to act in a way "you" approve of when it won't matter anyway. Also - either step up and talk solutions - or can you not do so? After all - solving problems is alot harder than pointing fingers.....

And for the record - I have 2 children that I work my tail off to provide for - not only the necessities but a superior education - so that they can truly appreciate and continue to conserve a wonderful planet. I hope to see them enjoy it - so I look for real workable answers - not feel good fairy foo foo claptrap that does nothing but give ignorant people a sense of self-importance.

Or - to put it the challenge of talking real solutions in the terms of an old American saying - "Put up, or (hush) up.".

How often must I repeat that excessive spending of limited natural ressources is they main problem and that any technical reduction of emissions alone will not be sufficient, before you understand it? You are fixated on exclusively those ways to see the problem that would leave you without need to change that excessive spending. And exactly that is the problem. with America. with the EU. And with the asian economies as well. Right now the US hides behind India and china, while China and India hide behind the US' stubborness not to change. Since the US pollutes roughly as much as 3-4 times as many Chinese, and consumes the relative greatest share of global ressources although just coming up with 5% of global population, it is up to America to do the first step and set an example. As a nation, China may have taken first position in total emissions recently. But in "pollution per head", America still is record holder, before the EU and before China both of which have much more population. It is no secret that major parts of the american industry are hopelessly outdated, and can survive in global competiton only by help of very massive subsidies and trade protection (wait, what is the US' official position on regulated trade...). Subsidies that still are not used for modernising. Some years ago, it seemed that China would eventually move, which was a threat for Washington, they lobbied heavily with the chinese and took a tough stand on climate themselves, as a result, any hope that China would move had come to an end, they used Washingtons position to claim they will not change their economy as long as Washington does not, and Washington's mission to prevent adressing emission control was successfully acchieved.

Hell, Washington even forbid federal states to establish rules for CO2 regulation! That says it all.

And just for the record, do not compare your country'S climate goals to that of the EU. If the EUs estimations on what could be acchieved are correct, is somethign different, but the goals that were formulated, simply outclasses any American evvrionmental awareness and poltical goals there are. While I am not happy with the EU approach as well and criticise is as not sufficient, it nevertheless is lightyears ahead of America.

[AVGWarhawk]

This is all I have to post concerning global warming:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200703230007

No Kool Aid for me, thanks.