why hate socialism?

[CCIP]

Have you ever actually read Marx?

I don't align myself with Marxism in particular, just for the record - there's certainly alternatives to a strictly Marxist perspective in socialism. Socialism is not a doctrine so much as it is a set of values, and Marx certainly didn't invent those, just set up a frame for them.

Added to that should be that Marx's theoretical work remains influential in the studies of political science, and is in fact predominant in the studies of history. There's plenty of debates over Marx's work in itself, of course, and by now it is quite old.

As for your post, well, what can I say. I really can't say anything. You're not addressing anyone's points but your own, so why should we even listen?

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Respenus

SUBMAN1, I'm only going to repeat this one more time and them... Well, I can't do anything over the internet, so I'll just the smarter man and stop trying to reason with you.

Welfare state is not Marxism. Social democracy is not Communism. Yes, they come from socialism (not capital letter Socialism). One of the first people to think about socialism were Christian socialists. You don't see them denouncing their God in order to be Marxist, do you? They only want the working class to have some sort of humane life, if you capitalism didn't let him have it. Governments went to fund the welfare state in order to prevent revolutions and not because revolution brought them to power.

I would recommend you read the final chapters of Mazower's Dark Continent: Europe's 20th Century. You'll learn a thing of two about true history. I'd recommend the whole book, yet I'm not sure it would fit your ideals on how you see the world.

Please for once, try not to react like a drunken redneck whose favourite shotgun was taken away and now he blames the Communists.

Remember SUBMAN1, the world is coming to get you. No longer shall the ideals of 300M people force-rape the remainder of the world into oblivion and destruction. I'll come for you myself, if I'll have to. Mark my words SUBMAN1, mark this day, for your days are counted.

Not even worth replying to since its a personal attack. And you're wrong by the way.

Yawn.

-S

[CCIP]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

No complaints here, the system works as advertised. The opportunity is the same for everyone

Are you sure about this? I'm not sure about this. Increasingly I am finding that the system is in fact not working, and certainly the antecedents to its partial breakdown can readily be observed, even in the US. That's been my whole point in this thread.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by CCIP

Are you sure about this? I'm not sure about this. Increasingly I am finding that the system is in fact not working, and certainly the antecedents to its partial breakdown can readily be observed, even in the US. That's been my whole point in this thread.

I think what you are looking at is an 'imperfect' system. Capitalism is in no way perfect, but in all the alternatives, it is the best and most opportunistic alternative for the common man to any other system that is out there bar none.

It is also not kind to those that are unwilling to help themselves. You get out what you put into it over here. If you don't like it, leave.

-S

[DeepIron]

Originally Posted by Hanomag

Whatever will be...will be. No amount of verbose orating or ranting or protesting or lobbying is going to change the big picture.

The world is run by the rich and powerful.... the end. You don't like it? Well your going to have a miserable life whining about it. Because you are definitely NOT going to change it. It's been this way since the begining of civilized culture. It is mans nature.

So no matter who you are or where you come from... either you have or you dont have. If you feel strongly about some political issue, get out there.. take a stand! See if you can rally some people to your cause. Maybe...just maybe, in some miniscule way you can make a dent. But laying out a biblical novel in a submarine video game forum isnt going to change anything.

Take a moment and look at yourself and say what have I done.... and I am not talking about writing a check to charity or recycling. What have you really done?
You think voting constitutes a change? Or helping effect a change?

I have to laugh at all the voting threads. Do you think for a minute that I really care who gets in office or that my vote makes a difference. Whoever they want, gets in office. What do they do for the little guy once in office, nothing. Well actually I did receieve a check in the mail from "W".

And you know what? Whether its democracy, socialism, communism, the little guy is still going to get the shaft. So B.O.H.I.C.A. (Bend Over Here It Comes Again) for you non military types. Grin and bear it, etc., etc.

So if you don't mind, I am going to get back to much, much more important things.. like sinking merchants...


PS Actually that "Supersize Me" movie changed something.. because of that toolbag, I cant order a supersized fry anymore. I'd like to meet that guy and punch him right in the grill.

If I were to prescribe to your view of the world, I might as well take my life now and be done with it as there is, in your world view, no reason to believe any kind of change is possible and I will always be on "the receiving end"...

Thankfully, throughout history there have been those people who, despite the odds and their "hopeless" political/social environments DID something instead of retreating into their own little pitiful worlds and saying, "Screw it". Nothing I will ever do will change anything."... YMMV.

[Biggles]

On the subject of communism...I sure hope you don'nt think that the Soviet Union had a pure communistic system 'cause really....it wasn't. (Stalin wasn't a commie, he was a Stalinist...)


On the subject of healthcare....

Well I live in Sweden. We have, at least had, amongst the highest taxes in the world. The reason? Well, this ensures that anyone, anyone, who is in need of medical treatment can have it, without selling all their belongings.

On the other hand, the lines for this treatment are rather long in some cases, and people often have to wait for a period of time, unless it's crucial that treatment is given immediately ofcourse.

So is it worth it then? High taxes and everyone gets help if needed?

If you ask me...

Hell yes.

I am a swedish citizen, and damn proud of it.

Sweden is one of the wealthiest countries in the world compared to size/population.
(Just as a side not)

[Respenus]

[quote=SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by CCIP

Are you sure about this? I'm not sure about this. Increasingly I am finding that the system is in fact not working, and certainly the antecedents to its partial breakdown can readily be observed, even in the US. That's been my whole point in this thread.

I think what you are looking at is an 'imperfect' system. Capitalism is in no way perfect, but in all the alternatives, it is the best and most opportunistic alternative for the common man to any other system that is out there bar none.

It is also not kind to those that are unwilling to help themselves. You get out what you put into it over here. If you don't like it, leave.

-S[/quote

Why do you think that people that are "poor" (I don't like that word, this too degenerative) are only lazy people, who don't want to do anything with their lives? I agree, there are of course some, there have always been, but why are you pushing me away, why are you taking away my human decency and saying "well, it's capitalism darling, accept it"? I wouldn't have a father, if it weren't for the welfare state that paid for his operation you *****.

The welfare state comes to life or death. How many times do I read about people who have to sell their homes in order to pay medical bills? And not only that. What if I lose my job due to capitalism? The state makes sure that I, a good citizen who contributes to the society, doesn't die of hunger/disease if I lose my job. It's going to be rough for a while, but that happens in any system, not just capitalism!

The problem is, that you have certain conceptions that were fed to you and now you don't want to let go. You're intolerant, not me. You have attacked the democrats for months on end now, without ever stopping to wonder what you were doing. You are without end. Most of the General topics now are about you ranting about the democrats and the "filthy Commies in America".

This isn't just you, it's most of the Americans on this forums.

And the book I recommended. Read it. It will do you a world of good. Plus several others, but that's for another topic.

And SUBMAN1 and others! God forbid something happened to you or your loved ones who would then need the welfare state. But karma's a bitch as they say. All we have to do is wait and see.

[DeepIron]

Frankly, I would support a form of "socialism" in the US for the resolution of our heath care system. But, I have a few caveats:

1. First, that the COST of medical treatments and procedures are brought down to something more reasonable than what we see now. Personally, I think the cost of most everything related to health care is WAY out of line. I don't mind paying a higher tax, but I expect that same tax dollar to buy a bit more than it would currently.
2. Secondly, to enjoy a "socialized" health care, one would need to be a citizen of the US. Not a "walk across the border and use the system" alien (from ANY nation).
3. Medical malpractice suits, which have historically driven the cost of health care up, need to have realistic ceilings.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by CCIP

Neal, that's not really a nice generalization. I'm sure that wasn't pointed at anyone in particular, but still - that's not exactly what socialism comes from. Sure, the intelligentsia brought plenty of ideas, good and bad, and has equally made good points and screwed up when it came to social issues. Still, I personally resent that, having lived among poor working people who fought tooth and nail to get anywhere in life, not for personal gain but for the good of others. It's a matter of perspective - from mine, I could likewise suggest that libertarians are by and large rich, selfish people whose fortune arises from an advantageous social position rather than hard work - but that's not really true either.

I personally strongly disagree with economic incentive as the be-all, end-all in human progress. It works to a point, but when unmoderated it paves a path straight to hell by the way of greed and exploitation. The society, in my view, has a broken view of wealth and gain - I've been rather poor most of my life (heck, I spent my early years in living arrangements with an average of 3.5 people / room), but I've lived within my means and I honestly never really saw the virtues of getting greedy beyond a certain point. And people really need to consider the real cost of things - because if they don't pay the price, someone else generally does. I'm not at all happy with a very common present-day arrangement where the system works largely through exploiting low costs permitted by the exploitation of the poor - at home or abroad. Having grown up around people exploited in this fashion, I take offence at the idea that being poor is necessarily a condition resulting from being lazy. That's simply not true.
There's a systemic failure at work here, and I don't think any reasonable socialist today (besides the usual radicals) would suggest that the whole point now is to break the system - no, but unless fixes are brought in, I'm afraid quite a lot of Americans will wind up in position to be exploited without a way to fight back, owing to a nasty social imbalance which I see gradually creeping up. The right to own guns isn't going to help much there, either.

I am aware you're participating in this discussion but my comments are not aimed at you, mate. I was a lot like you when I was your age (I know young people hate to hear that, just wait, you'll see) In all your intensive studies, do not neglect to study how people's viewpoints change with age. It's not exactly "wisdom" but if you plan to be around another 30 years, you may consider preparing yourself now for a modified outlook on life later.

Anyway, my statement may not be a nice generalization, but it is no different than hearing people called "selfish" and "greedy" if they aren't on board the socialism wagon. I hear that plenty. Since when is it greedy/selfish to keep the fruits of one's labor?

And these thinly veiled references (from several people in this thread) to an upcoming social revolution, what's all that about? Am I hearing we better give the masses what they want or they'lll take it by force? Ha!

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by DeepIron

Frankly, I would support a form of "socialism" in the US for the resolution of our heath care system. But, I have a few caveats:

1. First, that the COST of medical treatments and procedures are brought down to something more reasonable than what we see now. Personally, I think the cost of most everything related to health care is WAY out of line. I don't mind paying a higher tax, but I expect that same tax dollar to buy a bit more than it would currently.
2. Secondly, to enjoy a "socialized" health care, one would need to be a citizen of the US. Not a "walk across the border and use the system" alien (from ANY nation).
3. Medical malpractice suits, which have historically driven the cost of health care up, need to have realistic ceilings.

I agree with 2 and 3. Point 1, costs would go down if everyone paid their bills. When the uninsured and illegals use services and don't pay, the costs have to be passed on to those who have insurance.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Respenus

Why do you think that people that are "poor" (I don't like that word, this too degenerative) are only lazy people, who don't want to do anything with their lives? I agree, there are of course some, there have always been, but why are you pushing me away, why are you taking away my human decency and saying "well, it's capitalism darling, accept it"? I wouldn't have a father, if it weren't for the welfare state that paid for his operation you *****.

The welfare state comes to life or death. How many times do I read about people who have to sell their homes in order to pay medical bills? And not only that. What if I lose my job due to capitalism? The state makes sure that I, a good citizen who contributes to the society, doesn't die of hunger/disease if I lose my job. It's going to be rough for a while, but that happens in any system, not just capitalism!

The problem is, that you have certain conceptions that were fed to you and now you don't want to let go. You're intolerant, not me. You have attacked the democrats for months on end now, without ever stopping to wonder what you were doing. You are without end. Most of the General topics now are about you ranting about the democrats and the "filthy Commies in America".

This isn't just you, it's most of the Americans on this forums.

And the book I recommended. Read it. It will do you a world of good. Plus several others, but that's for another topic.

And SUBMAN1 and others! God forbid something happened to you or your loved ones who would then need the welfare state. But karma's a bitch as they say. All we have to do is wait and see.

All your ranting and raving comes down to one question - Why should the government forcibly take my money and redistribute it to both lazy and the less fortunate, when I am the one that does this myself? Again, it should be my choice to help, not some over-riding god of a government.

Bah!

You sound like a brainwashed monkey in that regard.

-S

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Respenus

Please for once, try not to react like a drunken redneck whose favourite shotgun was taken away and now he blames the Communists.

Remember SUBMAN1, the world is coming to get you. No longer shall the ideals of 300M people force-rape the remainder of the world into oblivion and destruction. I'll come for you myself, if I'll have to. Mark my words SUBMAN1, mark this day, for your days are counted.

You know, this is not necessary. No personal attacks and threats.

[Digital_Trucker]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Yes, but when does the profit margin stop after development? There must be a better way to bring down the costs of medicine and not just hang the cost across the board on the assumption of research.

Jeez, I leave for a little bit to catch up some killflags and a couple pages sprout up before I can answer the question

The profit margin to make up for development should end when the cost of development is recouped. This amount of time depends on the drug and the cost of development. The better way, in my opinion, is to require the companies that manufacture generics after the brand period to pay "royalties" to the company that developed the drug and require all companies to sell the drug for the same price after the brand period, but then you're talking about the government trying to police it, so the cost would go up even more (in taxes to pay the government police).

[Respenus]

How Americans view all the poor

[DeepIron]

Originally Posted by Respenus

How Americans view all the poor

Yeah right... How much aid, foreign and domestic, has Slovenia shelled out recently? Let me help you out:

Slovenia, an ex-Yugoslavian republic bordering Austria and Italy, was the richest of the eight formerly Communist countries that entered the European Union (EU) in 2004, priding itself with a GDP per capita at US$ 17,700. But as a moderately rich nation, not even Slovenia came close to EU goals of spending 0.39 percent of GDP in development aid - let alone the UN recommendation of 0.70 percent of GDP.