Fire in the hole! Now the Pakis are taking shots at US helos

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Kipparikalle

Skybird, why such a hatred against people of Pakistan?

They just are inconnect people man, its not like theyre hiding Osama bling O laden in their fridge

Don't mistake "hate" with "determination". I just think the wars of the past 7 years have been handled in a very stupid way. The war in Afghanistan was given up far too early - and almost everybody knowing the region and the history of it a bit said so. But Bush and the Neocons wanted their stupid little adventure in Iraq, and so everything that should have been massed in Afghanistan to give Pakistan a strong message, instead went into this unneeded, unwanted WAR OF CHOICE in Iraq. Now we see half-hearted attempts to tell the Pakistani to stop supporting the taleban and providing them shelter on their territory. Íf you think you need to wage war, do it with determination, with focus, push as hard as is needed and then some more, and be sure of your motives. With Iraq I have a problem because it was unneeded, and counterproductive, and a war of unlegitimized attack anyway. with Afghanistan, after 9/11 giving shelter for the attackers behind that strike, my problem is that it was done without orientation from the beginning, and still so, instead there are plenty of illusions. The US instead should have completely stayed focussed on pakistan and Afghanistan exclusively. It also should have remained to be an American war, not a NATO issue, NATO simply has no business there, and remember: after 9/11 the Us refused to call for military assistance. If it later acts stupdily and brings itself into a situation where it wants and needs NATO help, then this is no legitimatiopn to do so by tterms of the defense case as stated in article 5 of the NATO treaty. I see no realistic orientation there in the present, and for the future. Thus I reject to see my country getting entangled there more and more, all for nothing but tapping around blindly in the Afghan maze. That is not what I am willing to send soldiers into battle for. That is not taking the responsibility for your men serious - that is wasting their life and health instead, for nothing. In other words: you commit a crime against your own side. conclusion: without Pakistan being taken out of the formula, there is no realistic perspective to ever bring Afghanistan to any "successful" end. You keep on fighting a useless and unnecessary war then, so: pull out. but if you want to "win" there, you must be willing to take the fight to the Pakistani side and hurting it so badly that they reconsider the answer to the question wether their support for the Taleban is worth it, or not. Battles are not won by caring for your enemy and saving him from harm - but by crushing him as badly as possible. If you are not ready to will that, don't wage war, and pull out. the choice you make regqarding your future goals dictates the tools you need to implement in order to get there. The methods of today - do not work, whioch after 7 years should have become obvious.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Konovalov

http://news.smh.com.au/world/pakista...0927-4p0s.html

Not sure where the truth lies regarding numbers but Pakistan look to be doing something for a change. Perhaps they have realised it was not such a good idea all those years backing the Taliban (Afghan and Pakistan). You reap what you sow. I have lost count how may suicide bombings and other attacks there have been in Pakistan this year.

yes. and now add to this the confused political situation there, and the recent drive of religious groups to more power and public influence and profile. It's a powderkeg, and the fuse is burning. Pakistan will give us much joy and delight in the future - guaranteed. Clock is ticking against the West.

[Skybird]

P.S. At the airport of Cologne-Bonn, german special commandos today have arrested two Islamist germans in a plane who were under surveillance since month and were booked as terror-activists. they wanted to get a dedicated terror-training and or joining the jihad, which in the end is the same, and were heading for - Pakistan.

An islamic terror-cell that was busted one year ago - all of them german converts with one foreign Muslim being the mastermind and escaping - received it'S terror training in - Pakistan. they planned bombings with several hundreds of kilograms of explosives.

If you read back over the last couple of years, most Muslims arrested over claims of terrorism, got their training and experience in - Pakistan.

Pakistan provides the manpower, or trains it. Saudi Arabia and Iran provide the money.

[Konovalov]

Originally Posted by Skybird

and now add to this the confused political situation there,

When has the political situation not been confused.

Originally Posted by Skybird

and the recent drive of religious groups to more power and public influence and profile.

Not sure about this. Elections that were held back in February resulted in religious parties even in the tribal zones loosing significant support. They got hammered at the ballot box because the common Pakistani realised that they weren't offering anything and hadn't delivered anything tangible to the people in their constituencies. It would perhaps be fair to say that it is in flux with regards to the fortunes of the "religious groups".

The impression that I get from speaking with people on the ground (my wifes relatives and family) in Pindi, Islamabad and Azad Kashmir also point to a growing rejection of these political religious groups and more so the renunciation and disdain for the Pakistani Taliban and Al Qaeda associates who are perpetrating the many acts of violence and terror within the country. Anecdotally that is the impression that I have got over the last 8-10 months. I believe I have somewhat of a grounding in what is going on there not to mention I have travelled there now which was a real eye opener for an Aussie. A week doesn't go by without discussing it at the family dinner table or at the relatives homes.

I feel that there slowly is rising a sea change of opinion within Pakistan against these very forces that you suggest are on the advance. Over the last decade yes they have been on the advance. However the February elections blunted this. And at street level Pakistanis are beginning to realise that their own nation is under attack from within. Indeed this was mentioned in a CSM article I read earlier this month. Found it here. Specifically from that article:

Ironically, it comes at a time when Zardari and the civilian government have been making progress in rallying public support for the war on terror, casting it as a Pakistani war, not a proxy war for America. Zardari reiterated that stance in a column in Thursday's Washington Post. "We stand with the United States, Britain, Spain and others who have been attacked," he wrote. "Fundamentally, however, the war we are fighting is our war. This battle is for Pakistan's soul."

And from a Peter Bergan article for CNN that I kept on file from Februaury 2008:

Now the violence from the al Qaeda and Taliban militants is blowing back into Pakistan itself. In 2006 there were a handful of suicide attacks there. Last year there were 60 suicide bombings, mostly directed against Pakistani soldiers, policeman and government officials. The most prominent victim of the attacks was, of course, Pakistan’s most popular politician, Benazir Bhutto. Director of National Intelligence, Mike McConnell, testified earlier this month that suicide attacks in 2007 had killed nearly 900 Pakistani forces and civilians, and another 500 deaths were caused by armed clashes with the militants. McConnell pointed out that “in 2007, Pakistanis’ losses [at the hands of the militants] exceeded the cumulative total of all the years between 2001 and 2006.”

This wave of militant violence in Pakistan has led to a sharp decrease in support for al Qaeda and the Taliban. The polling organization Terror Free Tomorrow released a poll last week that showed that if the Taliban were on the ballot in Monday’s election in Pakistan they would garner only 3% of the vote, while al Qaeda would secure only 1% of the vote. Similarly, the poll found that favorable views of both Osama bin Laden and the Taliban have halved since the summer of 2007. Favorable views of bin Laden in the North West Frontier Province of Pakistan where he is widely believed to be hiding have plummeted from 70% to 4%.

This sharp loss of public support, together with the attacks directed at Pakistani authorities, might make it easier for Pakistan’s military to eliminate the safe haven for the militants in Pakistan’s tribal areas on the Afghan border, something it has so far proven unable or unwilling to do. And the new government elected on Monday may have the mandate to demand that Pakistan’s militants be finally put out of business.

However having said the above there was a poll taken later this year in June which showed a desire to negotiate with the Taliban and cease fighting in conjuction with a general unhappiness with their own government in particular with the increasing struggles of every day life such as seen in the dramatic rise in food prices and essentials such as atta (flour).

Yet the last three months have seen some of the most horrific attacks by Al Qaeda and Pakistani/Afghan Taliban within Pakistans borders resulting in the deaths of many innocent civilians. In particular have been the suicide bombings killing Pakistani schoolgirls among others during the holy month of Ramadan 1429ah which is anathema to those I know. It would be interesting to see anoth poll of Pakistani public opinion at the end of this year. :hmm:

For reference you can compare the two polls that were taken here in June 2008 and earlier in Februaury 2008 here.

[Konovalov]

Originally Posted by Skybird

If you read back over the last couple of years, most Muslims arrested over claims of terrorism, got their training and experience in - Pakistan.

Stating the obvious there mate. Except we could go back a lot longer than that to 9/11 and even many years earlier to Ramzi Yousef and the 1993 WTC bombing and the later foiled Bojinka plot which appeared like the inspiration for the recently foiled liquid bomb airline plot from last year. Training for all of these attacks/plots were centered in Pakistan.

Originally Posted by Skybird

Pakistan provides the manpower, or trains it. Saudi Arabia and Iran provide the money.

Correct again.

[Skybird]

You give an ambigous sitrep by that. We would need to wait and see, then. however, inaction is no option for the West with a war going on in Afghanistan and western soldiers risking their lives, so it should be started (or continued - a matter of perspective) with building a solid front against Pakistan so that even the most undecided Pakistani can see in all clearity that not fighting with determination against the taleban and kill them down and remaining in a comfortable stand of neutral passivity instead - is not an option that comes at no costly price. they have had decades to get their acts together and assess the Taleban, and their past record speaks against them. I stick with accusing their intel and military to strongly sympathize with them. So, as long as there is no massive cleaning taking place in their security apparatus (unlikely), it cannot be trusted and very probably will carry on to run double-plays.

[Konovalov]

Originally Posted by Skybird

You give an ambigous sitrep by that.

That would be because the very nature of Pakistani politics and internal affairs is one of incredible unpredictability which lends to great difficulty being an almighty sage and predicting Pakistans future. So yes, we will need to wait and see.

[Brag]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

That is a very possible consequence

Time to rethink the overall strategy in the area :hmm:

Right Jimbo,
This type of war is won by finesse, not brutal force.

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by Brag

This type of war is won by finesse, not brutal force.

[mrbeast]

Originally Posted by Platapus

I second that Platapus

Think you hit the nail right on the head there Brag

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by mrbeast

I second that Platapus

Think you hit the nail right on the head there Brag

That Brag guy is pretty smart. He should write a book or something one of these days.

[Skybird]

Superior finesse and polite restraint and civilised dosages have been tried for years now.

Let's see how far this will lead you in the future years to come.

Ah, not necessary, I already know the answer.

Sang Roger Whittaker 30 years ago:
"Everybody is looking for an answer,
now that you tried your way -
why don't you try my way!"

[Frame57]

"Never hate your enemies, it affects your judgement"


Don Vito Corleone

[Stealth Hunter]

Originally Posted by Letum

See the topic title.

"Paki" is a strong racial slur from the 50s/60s in the UK.. The equivalent of "Jap" or
"******", but for anyone of South Asian ethnicity.

Heh, reminds me of the time that this fellow in the airport called me a "Sand Ni***r".

Racism is stupid as hell.

[AntEater]

How dare they?
A sovreign nation firing at armed foreign helicopters crossing their border?
:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

This is the Bush doctrine at its worst.
Why give a frackin damn about other nations, diplomacy, intelligence work, negotiations and all that other liberal pinko BS when we have the Delta Force?

Especially funny when you consider how critical the US was about Russia invading Georgia