The enemy within: evangelical fundamentalism in US armed forces

Originally Posted by Fish

As there is? China, SA?

I don't understand what you are asking Fish.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Fish

As there is? China, SA?

A common characteristic of both Christian and Islamic fundamentalists alike. That'S why I have some sympathy for Judaism, not for it'S content, for which I do not care that much, but for it's form and behavior. It does not try to teach me about it's greatness and truth and glory at every opportunity, but leaves me alone when I say No, and stays for itself. The same coluld be said for Buddhism, and Hinduism, at least in the forms they appear in the Western world. Give them a No, and they happily leave you alone.

That No is an answer many Christians and Muslims do not accept - and that'S when I start kicking their sectarian a$$e$. And before they, in an act of arrogant theatralic altruism, include me in their prayers nevertheless to show me how wellmeaning and superior in selflessness they are, I want them to ask me if I want to be there.

Possible that they would not like my answer to that as well. Well, life can be hard.

And now, to lead this thread back on tracks, i quote the introduction again, and what the problem is on which it all focusses:

This paper analyzes the impact of a culturally homogeneous group on strategic decision-making and policy recommendations. The United States military's organizational climate has shifted steadily to the right since the Viet Nam War. Today's Armed Forces are increasingly identified with conservative Christian and Republican values. This change in group dynamics can inhibit the decision making process by preventing a thorough review of relevant courses of action, in accordance with the Rational Decision Model. The nature of in-groups and their influence on the decision process can have a deleterious effect on sound decision making, even if only inadvertently. Today's conservative voice has a strong influence on national policy decisions. This makes it imperative that strategic leaders understand the culture shift in today's military, as well as how group dynamics can limit creativity and proper analysis of alternatives. The failure to do so can cause a divergence of opinion between military and civilian leaders and thereby widen the gap in civil military relations.

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

August's one mistake is, that - like often - he only accepts things to happen if they are happening in the open, plain and easy to be seen, uncovered, unhidden. For him some rule or law is written on a paper, and reality matches it, always, undisputed. If the constitution says this or that, it cannot be imagined by him that massive violation of this paragraph may be the rule of the day. And the US has remained unchnaged since decades and centuries, the past decades since the WII for example have not taken place and have not chnaged the poltiical moral face of the country - not at all! Since he is minimizing the danger that way, it appears to him that atheism suddenly is a so much greater a threat, when comparing.

And Skybirds mistake is that he sees boogie men under every rock and doesn't really understand Americans, their society or their politics as well as he thinks he does. Whatever our internal diferences we are all Americans first.

[RedMenace]

Originally Posted by Iceman

Look at the world around you realistically and quit living fantasy star trek, we all will overcome nonsense, and smell the coffee.It is not only silly but folly to believe that man will "ever" EVER! overcome it differences in faith,politics, and the like in time to save this world...face reality please and concede to the facts of life....

1. The atmosphere is polluted beyond repair.
2. The food supplies are not in good shape and if they are the ones who have starve the have nots.
3. Those in power around the globe will never Never agree to share control.
4. We daily poison ourselves with pollution and crappy foods.
5. This is not just America either but it is a concerted effort by ALL.
6. WE Kill
7. WE Steal
8. We Sin against others and ourselves.

These are facts...non disputed by scientists and the like.

Please please! tell me what possible hope you have that I may believe in it.

The world offers death on a silver platter.

Christ offers life.
Tell me what is wrong with that?
Have a good day.

God is dead,
And no one cares.
If there is a Hell,
I'll see you there.

Have a good day.

[Umfuld]

Skybird, I'm not against anything you say but you point to Vietnam and say how much the army's political makeup has changed since then.

Probably something to do with most of them being drafted back then, no?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Umfuld

Skybird, I'm not against anything you say but you point to Vietnam and say how much the army's political makeup has changed since then.

Probably something to do with most of them being drafted back then, no?

Not me but the study says so, plus some German essays I read some days ago in combination with that study. And if the draft has something to do with the culture shift, then this does not change a bit the fact that there has been a culture shift indeed. But I agree in so far as that the abandoning of the draft system has something to do with the shifting to the right, if it is more symptom or more a cause can be discussed. Since the religious right has increasiongly pished for power positions in government, society and the army, I think it is a bit of both.

In Germany this fear for a shifting to the right, or an isolated "society within society", is one of the arguments why many refuse to change the bundeswehr from a conscript to a professional army. that step makes an army a more closed "secret" society", that then makes it's own rites and rules and get's "closed off" to the rest of society, it has the tendency to isolate itself in order to remain itself "clean".

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Not me but the study says so, plus some German essays I read some days ago in combination with that study. And if the draft has something to do with the culture shift, then this does not change a bit the fact that there has been a culture shift indeed. But I agree in so far as that the abandoning of the draft system has something to do with the shifting to the right, if it is more symptom or more a cause can be discussed. Since the religious right has increasiongly pished for power positions in government, society and the army, I think it is a bit of both.

In Germany this fear for a shifting to the right, or an isolated "society within society", is one of the arguments why many refuse to change the bundeswehr from a conscript to a professional army. that step makes an army a more closed "secret" society", that then makes it's own rites and rules and get's "closed off" to the rest of society, it has the tendency to isolate itself in order to remain itself "clean".

That is one reason, that makes even the Finnish left, support our conscription.

[U49]

Originally Posted by Skybird

In Germany this fear for a shifting to the right, or an isolated "society within society", is one of the arguments why many refuse to change the bundeswehr from a conscript to a professional army. that step makes an army a more closed "secret" society", that then makes it's own rites and rules and get's "closed off" to the rest of society, it has the tendency to isolate itself in order to remain itself "clean".

That makes me one of them, but the direction of the move does not matter for me.
Any move away from the rest of the society is a grave danger to us!
We follow the principle that all force in germany is monopolised by the state.
As such, the state and all it's instituitions must be strictly aligned with the people.

Using conscription is a proven way to achieve that alignment, and so far there was no convincing option discussed in germany.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by U49

Using conscription is a proven way to achieve that alignment, and so far there was no convincing option discussed in germany.

That could be questioned, but it would be enough matter for a whole new thread. Also, we did have our Bundeswehr-scandals in the past years too, didn't we. So, immune to certain culture shifts the BW certainly is not. It maybe is just more difficult and thus: unlikely to happen on a wide front. In the end, every army still is a men's world, and a playing boy's secret society. Just look how language changes immediately once civilians, or worse: ladies are present.

[Radtgaeb]

I don't understand the militant attitudes towards faith. Yeah, there are militant sects of every faith, even the lack of faith has violent extremists...

I'm a Christian. I believe in God. I believe in good and evil. I've never killed anyone or yelled in anyone's face.

Mostly, I just keep my religion to myself. What I believe is my own choice, and what others believe is theirs. I can't control your faith. I can talk to you about it if you're interested, but I won't yell at you if you don't believe in God. Mostly, I'll just pray for you...how is this harmful?

ALL of my Christian buddies are like me in this way. In fact, it's my athiest/agnostic friends that do the more shouting at us than anything else.

I just want to let you all know that we're not all freaks that want the world to end ASAP. Would I care? Not really, if things were to go down fast, I know where I'm going...but I'd rather live a full life before any of that happens.

My message to religious radicals: God wants spiritual fruits, not religious nuts.

The real threat comes from those who would not allow the peaceful, free exercise of religion.

Which is why my country's constitution forbids the government from prohibiting the free exercise of religion.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

You may notice that no mention is made concerning seperation of church and state. Only that the congress/state shall not establish a religion. See Henry VIII.

[The WosMan]

Originally Posted by waste gate

The real threat comes from those who would not allow the peaceful, free exercise of religion.

Which is why my country's constitution forbids the government from prohibiting the free exercise of religion.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

You may notice that no mention is made concerning seperation of church and state. Only that the congress/state shall not establish a religion. See Henry VIII.

A lot of people seem to forget the second half.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Radtgaeb

I don't understand the militant attitudes towards faith. Yeah, there are militant sects of every faith, even the lack of faith has violent extremists...

I'm a Christian. I believe in God. I believe in good and evil. I've never killed anyone or yelled in anyone's face.

Mostly, I just keep my religion to myself. What I believe is my own choice, and what others believe is theirs. I can't control your faith. I can talk to you about it if you're interested, but I won't yell at you if you don't believe in God. Mostly, I'll just pray for you...how is this harmful?

ALL of my Christian buddies are like me in this way. In fact, it's my athiest/agnostic friends that do the more shouting at us than anything else.

I just want to let you all know that we're not all freaks that want the world to end ASAP. Would I care? Not really, if things were to go down fast, I know where I'm going...but I'd rather live a full life before any of that happens.

My message to religious radicals: God wants spiritual fruits, not religious nuts.

I could live with the example of yours. And I do not yell at all at people with that attitude of yours. Don't do here, never did before - just express my bewildering maybe, if I am adresssed first and somebody tells me that (and what) he believes. If he starts it, he must live with my opinion as well. Because he is free to keep his religion to himself . I do not like missionising. It's wrong, always. I do not tell others what they should believe, if I am not asked or that they should not believe at all. I demand the same self-restriction from others, from believers as well. "Keep thy religion to thyself" - that is all what I demand of fundis of whatever a kind. And don't try to impose your religion onto public life and state's institutions. Just this. Since fundamentalists offensively try to spread their influence, by that action they become a valid target for attack and criticism in my understanding, in defense of civil society.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by The WosMan

A lot of people seem to forget the second half.

And you seem to forget that the first amandement not only means not to make politics against free religion, but also to make laws in favour of a religion. Already the first settlers on Rhode Island, Quakers who were persecuted by the British crown, cared about the separation between state and religion, probabaly coming from their experiences with the crown, and the tradition of their services which are more unritual and more contemplative than those services of most other christian churches.

The first amendement to the US constitution does not only mean the right to demand the state not interfering with the free practicing of religion - it also means, vice versa, that the state should not intervene in religion's favour. Thus it describes a right as well as a limit of behavior. It prohibits the state to regulate or limit religion. It also prohibits that the state should help religion.

I could hardly remember any book, article, essay, statement, that would have expressed that the separation of state and church is not an intended reality in the US. It is a nation basing on the canon of values deriving from the christian-Judaic tradition - but it is no theocracy, although there are fundamentalists who would like to turn it into one - in the name of their own views. This is what needs to be fought against - not against but on the basis of the constitutional order, and it's defense.

A general view on those parts of US history that are relevant for this discussion, with some interesting details, ranging from the relation between state and private initiative concerning wellfare, over the fear of a wave of Catholic immigration in the 19th century and the importance of Jefferson, to the developement of the school system over the nation's history:

http://www.ibka.org/en/articles/ag02/kirkhart.html

The author is American, and lives in America. What he says very much is what I remember to know about the issues, so I support his evaluation.

[Stealth Hunter]

Hell, I get on a plane for a vacation in California, and people stare at me like I'm going to blow them up just because I look Middle-Eastern (and- well, it's true; but Iranians aren't terrorists...).

Ugly mess all the way around. I'm an American citizen, and damn proud to be one, as am I also damn proud to be Iranian.