v1.3 Patch And Japanese ASW

[Ducimus]

Jace has me thinking. I was going to respond to this thread earlier, because my thoughts on the new AI... well..

meh.


I haven't been able to play much but ive noticed they're aim seems to be way off, and their entirely too easy to break contact from. They get active sonar contact, but its usuually very breif.

[Peto]

This is an interesting thread... I know you guys don't know me but I've been reading your posts for a long time and have a LOT of respect for what you say.

Anyway--I've never had trouble getting away from escorts and was hoping 1.3 would challenge me more. So far it has. The escorts DO react to my attacks and start searches where I likely fired from, more often than not, driving me down to evade (albeit, too late ). The merchants are definitely scrambling more although I actually wish they'd go out on tangents and evade my "known" position even more. None-the-less, they no longer sit dead in the water like they used to which is a vast improvement to me.

I just finished a career mission (Feb 44) where I got into 2 different convoys. Both had 4 escorts. Both attacks were in flat seas--the 1st at night and the 2nd at 10AM. I got into 800 yards of the convoy in the 1st approach and popped 3 ships. The lead escort peeled back but didn't find me. The flank came up and took a different search area--he went right over me and never found me (I was 300' SR). 2nd attack I didn't get in--my fault as I approached too close and the lead DD picked me up on sound. As he was less than a 1000 yards away I have no problem with that. I got deep, evaded the 1st pattern, went silent and fed my cat. I'm used to not having to pay attention once I get under a layer. Suddenly--I hear pinging and race back to my action station. A 2nd DD had picked me up. Anyway--2 more patterns and I crept out with little effort. But that's about as tough a time I've had with escorts unless I've allowed myself to get caught shallow--so it is a slight improvement for me.

As far as Escort deployment in the campaign: Well, I wish they'd have done 1 or 2 less DD classes and added the Etorofu and Kaikoban Escorts. The Japanese made plenty of the plucky little ships and they did the bulk of escort duties later on (especially through 44/45). And some of them were Very Tough--Good Hunters. Without those classes (and the scarcity of SC's) I don't mind seeing the DD's. better than no escorts as I like a challenge.

All-in-all: (This is probably better asked in the mod forum but you guys probably know) is there a way to weaken or get rid of the layer? I'm a masochist and really enjoy a good depth charging and I just can't seem to find my cup of pain. SH3 late war gave me fits trying to get away. Some of the Japanese escort commanders were just as tenacious and dedicated--they just lacked the technology the Allies had in ASW capabilities. But they'd still find and hold down subs for hours, and in too many cases, they'd get one. Where are these guys in the sim? I sure haven't met one.

I have renewed hope with some 1.3 improvements I'm seeing (not sure what's going on with your scenarios Jace but it isn't my experience anymore with 1.3).

Looking forward to see what some campaign/sensor mods will do with the game now...

Cheers!

Peto

[-Pv-]

Using Battle Stations apparently increases your detection if the escorts are very close.

"...is there a way to weaken or get rid of the layer? I'm a masochist.."

Well you could just stay above the layer. Have fun.

"...then they turned around to where they had originally seen me and started a new search pattern - even though they had received a new updated location of my sub, they went to the previous position..."

Maybe you only guessed that they spotted your scope. A sudden increase of speed in your direction is not a reliable indicator. Escorts may do this for other reasons.

"... Anyway, I know people think they are harder now, but I think they are easier..."

Keep playing. You'll eventually get the escorts from hell who drop endless DC and won't give up for anything pinging you from three directions every time you take a breath.
-Pv-

[tater]

Peto, you can try my campaign mod, but it only goes to early 1943 (after which it is stock, plus zig-zags, but I'm working on it).

I dump many escorts and replace them with SCs and MSs both set to be "corvettes" so the MS will escort. In many ways they are tougher than the DDs since even if you want to torpedo them they are so shallow, lol.

My actual play observations are almost all in my mod, so I might have different expectations. My convoys are almost always zig-zagging (not constant helming, a turn off base every 15-120 minutes depending on the group with some speed and ZZ changes on different legs to mix it up). My Tfs are ZZing AND they are never below 15 knots, with 17 probably being average. I have some legs with 20+ knot dashes.

As a result, even if I make it through, I frequently don't get a second attack. If they hold me down for even an hour I have no hope to end around on a TF.

tater

[tater]

As for the layer, it is not hard to mod, it's set as a pretty "hard" layer by default (ducimus posted about it in another thread---I need to quote it in a sticky so I can always find it, lol). Anyway, the hydrophones and sonars can be tweaked, I honestly think a lot of the reaction has much to do with how and if they have contact.

tater

[Peto]

Thanks Tater! Your Campaign mod sounds infuriating enough to be just what I'm looking for :rotfl: . I was planning on doing something along those lines but I just haven't had (or made) the time to do it.

I'll look for it and if I can't find it I'll PM you.

Thanks Again!

Peto

[Steeltrap]

Peto, welcome aboard!

Delighted to read your comments....I encourage discussion, so if someone has a different opinion or experiences to quote, I'm very happy to hear them! To me, that's the whole point in coming here.

I think another issue is to do with the depth-changing behaviour of subs. I made a post about this some time ago. Point is that your ability to change depth is, largely, unaffected by your speed. That is plain wrong, as subs relied heavily on their forward motion to change depth. Sure, they could also change depth using pumping/blowing/flooding, but silent changes were not done like this.

I wonder how this went 'wrong', as SH3 had, as I recall, a far more accurate portrayal of depth keeping abilities (especially with the so called "humming bird" mod that made maintaining depth without some headway impossible....just as it should be). Much of depth changing is a straight function of dive angle and forward motion. Speed up and/or increase your angle and you dive more quickly. Silent running should nerf your main pumps as they are noisy, so you rely on forward motion. Watch your sub in external view, however, and you'll notice a few things....
* your pitch virtually doesn't change.
* your depth changes through the sub moving up and down without any regard to your speed.
* your planes move but have largely no effect on pitch - watch yourself dive without your stern remaining close to the surface. One thing about a 'steep' dive was that it was, after a point, counter-productive as it kept the stern clos to the surface for longer.


It's almost as though it's been programmed to look a certain way as you dive initially, but then bears little resemblence to reality thereafter.

This is a factor in the behaviour of escorts as it gives you a real advantage. Escort approaching? No problem - dive deep without having to increase your speed and, hence, sound radiation. Being able to pop up and down at will without any requirement to speed up or use compressed air (and I've yet to see my sub use any as far as I can tell) gives us tactical possibilities that simply didn't exist without trading off stealth. We get to keep both - rapid depth changes and keeping silent. Makes the escorts' jobs that much tougher.

There are many cases of skippers remarking on how long it took to reach the surface after going deep quickly - as much as 30 minutes from 300 feet. If we were forced to decide when to go deep and how quickly, knowing that this would mean "no more attacking for 15 minutes or so" it would force us to remain in potentially more dangerous positions, with the increased risks that entails.

Sigh....it's just more evidence of what, to me, remains entrenched as the fundamental flaws in the sim. Maybe the developers had plans to address all these things - if they did their research as thoroughly as has been asserted then it's hard to believe they weren't aware of these issues - making the way the sim shipped all the more a crime against us and them by the marketers etc....

Forget lawyers....when the revolution starts, I want marketers to be the first "up against the wall"!!

Cheers

[Peto]

Originally Posted by Steeltrap

Peto, welcome aboard!

Forget lawyers....when the revolution starts, I want marketers to be the first "up against the wall"!!

Cheers

:rotfl: . I'd like to join your firing squad! :rotfl: .

As far as the rest of your post, I completely agree. Once committed to going deep, it was no easy thing coming back up without noise and compressed air. To do it with escorts in the area....well....no one who wanted to live did it unless the circumstances were dire. The realism side of me refuses to come back up until I'm sure I've cleared the area of danger. I've read accounts of boats that did that kind of thing but as I recall--many of them are still on patrol now. Most submariners look on skippers who did that kind of stuff as "Nuts". I guess that's why the story of Mush Morton going into Wewak gets retold all the time--because he was crazy. It's the crazy ones who get remembered the best.

Thank You for your welcome!

Cheers!

Peto

[cdrsubron7]

I've been reading this thread I started with keen interest as I am having a heck of a time with these destroyers in the 1.3 patch. I made contact with a large convoy earlier tonight. I made a quick end round and got ahead of the convoy and then submerged. went to battlestations, rigged for silent running, and speed set at 1 knot (also went to 200 ft). My bow was pointed directly at the oncoming convoy to offer as little as small an area for detection to the oncoming convoy. Using the external camera I watched the destroyer which was out front of the convoy. This destroyer (Mutsuki class) when I first saw it was on the port side of the convoy traveling at twelve knots on the same course as the convoy. A few minutes later the destroyer turned to starboard cutting across in front of the convoy and as it cut across in front of the convoy I saw it slow done for a few hundred yds and then speed up again. The destroyer did this twice before reaching the starboard side of the convoy and turning back to run on the same course as the convoy again. The destroyer then turned to port and started cutting across in front of the convoy again. When it got halfway across it must have detected me, because I hear the destroyer start pinging and lights started flashing on the bridge warning the other ships.

At this point I went to flank speed and turned hard to port to avoid the destroyer coming at me and the depth charges he dropped. I came up to periscope depth with the door on the forward tubes open and ready to shoot. Fired three torpedoes each at two merchants and then pulled the plug and headed for 400 ft. I could hear the destroyers pinging in the distance like they had lost me for the moment and when I started to head to my plan escape route all of a sudden the sub is spinning out of control, I'm getting damage reports from all over the sub and I'm sunk.

I don't know what I'm doing wrong but I feel like a complete noob again. Its no fun playing this game if you get sunk every time you attack a convoy.


What am I doing wrong guys ???????





cdrsubron7

[Peto]

Well--probably nothing wrong but I'm not willing to join your crew just yet .

From what you said I think you might be trying to come in from DIRECTLY AHEAD of the convoy. The closest I want to come to that setup is to do a head on approach on a flank merchant of a wide convoy (say 6 columns wide). Even then I worry. A lot. Try approaching more from the quarter--that is come in from the side of the convoy more than from in front. I tend to worry more about the flanking escorts than the leader because of the way I come in. And sometimes I get lucky and the closest flanker is out a few thousand yards looking at kelp . That opens up the whole flank for me to pick on and gives me time to set up my shot.

The downside of this type of approach is it's easy to misjudge ranges and it can leave you out in left field. You have to try to time it so you come in kind of behind and to the side of the leading escort--but far enough ahead of the flanker so you can turn down the columns of merchants. It's a method that has served me well since Aces of the Deep.

If you'd like me to try to clarify my points, ask away. I'll try to help you the best I can.

Hang in there! These sims take Practice with a Capital P!!!! But the pay-off is that smug look when you finally go to bed LOL.

Cheers!

Peto

[Peto]

One more thing--Use sound. As few periscope observations as possible. And then try it with external view disabled .

[Suicide Charlie]

Originally Posted by Peto

approaching more from the quarter

ahead of the flanker so you can turn down the columns of merchants. It's a method that has served me well since Aces of the Deep.

This is a tactic that I've been trying to replicate and I've failed thus far. My problem is positioning myself in order to do that. I'm pretty sure I'm too close in when I'm still surfaced and moving to try to place myself in a good intercept postion.

Say you've been given a task force report and it's positioned say to the WNW-W of you and heading S. It's close enough that it should be possible to intercept (Say using a S-class boat. We'll go with a slow example for an extreme.). What are you're steps to move to an intercept position on those fast moving ships when they're about on the same latitude?

I think my problem is if I'm able to run a box pattern to intercept I venture too close and they spot me waaaay off.

[Jace11]

Ok, maybe I'll give 1.3 another chance. I have been heavily modding the sim.cfg, but it should have made them better not worse..

[tater]

It gets worse when you make a setup and they zig away

Course just as often I've had a decent long range quartering setup and they zag down my throat.

Actually, that's something I need to nail down with my current improved campaign before I redo the entire war and make a definitive one. I need a sense of how the AI is dealing with the course changes in zig zags. I might have to make them a-historically low angle, or longer time frame if they can't cope well. So far I have them far enough apart I don't see them happen that often (which was a choice due to those very concerns).

tater

[Peto]

Originally Posted by Suicide Charlie

Say you've been given a task force report and it's positioned say to the WNW-W of you and heading S. It's close enough that it should be possible to intercept (Say using a S-class boat. We'll go with a slow example for an extreme.). What are you're steps to move to an intercept position on those fast moving ships when they're about on the same latitude?

If I have a speed advantage I run parrallel to their course until they're well behind me (about 135 or 225 relative). Then I come about 30 degrees right or left so I'm working in ahead of them. Just keep nudging your course to put you ahead but out of visual range. Needless to say, if I have radar this approach is greatly simplified!

I typically try to dive ahead of the formation but then instead of heading straight for them, I angle off to one side by a few degrees so I'll be positioned off one flank of the convoy/task force. The when they get close, I turn back in for my approach.

If I only have a 1-2 knot speed advantage it's very difficult to do.

As for you checking 1.3 out some more Jace: I'm glad in a selfish way! You do some great work with you mods and I'd hate for them not to be compatible with 1.3. Just want you to know that you're appreciated by all members of my crew .

And Tater: DL'd your Campaign mod and am checking it out. I'll let you know my thoughts after I've had some time with it. So far--it looks Great!!!! Thank You!

Cheers!

Peto