The morality behind playing as "Nazis" in SH3

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by fatty

Maybe they weren't all nazis, but they weren't many Marco Ramiuses either. Did any u-boats actually defect before 1945? Anyway, if taking part in the above bothers you, that is okay. It doesn't bother me - submarines are too cool.

Somehow, I don't think most of them were helping Hitler. They were probably more interested in helping Germany. By your logic, any American who currently feels the occupation of Iraq is wrong should run and help the Iraqi insurgents.

And I don't get why you like Marko Ramius. Sure, the death of his wife was very tragic, but let's face it, if an American Captain lost his wife to incompetence in the American government's health system and the Captain decided to take revenge on the "American State" by taking his Ohio to Russia as a result, Tom Clancy would be blasting him right alongside everyone else.

Marko Ramius is not punishing the Soviet State so much as he's punishing all of the Soviet Union's people for his one wife's death. It is not noble. It is sick.

[SinisterDexter]

It shouldn't bother you any more than say, playing Hitman, Grand Theft Auto series, Mafia, etc.

[Heibges]

Originally Posted by geetrue

Now don't get me wrong Heibges I'm on your side, but I thought Hyman Rickover was non-polictical or did you just mean his thought's on nuclear power usage?

Rickover was one strange dude. He interviewed people for the nuclear power porgram and always had them sit in a chair with the front two legs two inches shorter so the person he was interviewing was uncomfortable. When he made captain he just sewed another new stripe on his coat sleeve. Three old faded gold stripes and one new gold stripe made him an unusal looking fellow.

Basically, Rickover thought the entire surface fleet was obsolete, and would be destroyed in a few days in a real war. At the same time, manned bombers were being viewed as obsolete. The crossroads came during Jimmy Carter's (Rickover's protege) presidency.

Like Clinton gets credit for the drive to balance the budget which actually started under Bush, Reagan gets credit for a defense buildup that actually started under Carter.

Carter was going to build the Ohio with the D-5 and Los Angeles Class submarines, but he was not going to fund the MX Missle or the B-2 Bomber. And in retrospect they both turned out to be huge pork barrel projects along with Star Wars. It is doubtful we would have much of a surface fleet at all if Carter had won a second term.

But when Reagan got elected there was that push for a 600 fleet Navy, and the MX Missle, B-2 Bomber, and Star Wars were heavily funded.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Chock

Also, while I don't agree that German armed forces always deserve some sort of forgiveness, but... step into their shoes for a moment. If you're a young German man in 1939 or even 1944, would you really become a deserter, a criminal, and all those other nasty things instead of doing what any patriotic man would consider their duty?

Exactly...not to excuse the atrocities of the Third Reich, but think about the viewpoint of your average Otto or average Heinrich or whoever, who's 18 or 19 years old and has been fed propaganda for most of his adult life that his home and family is being attacked by outside forces and the only way to save everything he loves, his homeland and family, is to to fight....you bet your butt he'd sign up for submarine service. I have a healthy respect for U-boat crewmen. Too bad they were fighting on the wrong side, but as combatants, they were very honorable. Read the introduction to Iron Coffins, written by a U.S. Navy captain in the 1960's for a good viewpoint on this.

Draw the line between the chess game you play as a U-boat commander and the ideology of the Nazi party, and you will have no problems playing SH3 or Aces of the Deep, et al.

[Iceman]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Lol

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by fatty

The way I see it, whether or not you think you are these guys:



you're playing a simulation of the blowing up of these guys:



with the overall objective of helping this guy:



beat these guys:



Maybe they weren't all nazis, but they weren't many Marco Ramiuses either. Did any u-boats actually defect before 1945? Anyway, if taking part in the above bothers you, that is okay. It doesn't bother me - submarines are too cool.

That was a great post and that's all I want to say on this thread. Bye!

[joea]

Agree with Fatty, I'm really sick of relativising and revisionism I see everywhere in the world today.

[Heibges]

I think it was revisionist at the time when they made everything so black and white.

Folks like Norman Mailer in "Naked and the Dead", pointed out there was very little difference between the bad guys and us.

And the Barney Greenwald character also makes this clear in "The Caine Mutiny".

[geetrue]

The real difference is in what your fighting for (insert 1960's song of choice) the nose art on any WWII airplane was available to be a helpful reminder for the United States fighting forces.

Notice the surge in building projects after WWII on both sides

[Hitman]

So its all evil anyway. But we make it into something entertaining and joyous and that however is the weird fetishization of war that is the real conflict in all of this. How we rationalize our perverse taste in conflict as a form of entertainment is the real question.

Probably Skybird would be the most indicated to tell you the reasons, (He is psychologist) but I can anyway say that we have in our basic instincts since we were apes pre-programated a taste for war and for killing anyone who is different, as well as for expanding territory. Reason: 150.000 years ago men lived in small groups where males went out for hunting and women kept the childs and collected fruits. Males were pre-progamated by nature to kill animals or anything that moves (We have a vision adapted to movement, you will notice easily something moving in the extreme side of your vision angle but not something static), and to keep any other human-groups out of the hunting territory. Reason: Potential competitor for the same (scarce) resources. Humans develop a strong instinct of identification with a group and its characteristics, and also instinctively hate and want to kill anyone looking different because nature ensures they perceive it as a threat to own survival (That's probably the main reason for the racism and hate for inmigrants, and it comes from our guts like it or not).

What modern society has done with sports and video games is simply make an acceptable form of exteriorizing and satisfying those instincts in a a "ritual" or simulated form. So IMO there's nothing wrong in war-video games AT LEAST if you know what is behind them and can and want to control it.

[Camaero]

Humans are a very warlike people. I have to say, I dislike killing and I wish there weren't any wars, but I absolutely love anything to do with combat simulations. I love reading books upon books about military conflicts, and my favorite movies involve war. War isn’t going away anytime soon for us.

Am I a sick SOB who likes death? No. What I am attracted to is what men can do under extreme situations. I like to read about courage and the amazing things ordinary people do when they have to. The camaraderie people develop under those situations are also second to none.

This is why I respect most of the Germans in WWII. A lot of them were drafted, a lot of them were not Nazis. A lot of them didn’t have much choice. I also fully understand the overwhelming need to defend ones country. When the walls started closing in on them, children started picking up guns and fighting. If I was a German back then, I would have too. I would not stand for my city being obliterated by bombers even if I HATED my government.

Now what about the SS and the boys who were responsible for the Jews? Those people, and anyone like them, I will never respect or feel sorry for. They all deserve to die a thousand times over in horrible ways.

See what I mean? Would anyone play a game where you got to heard Jews into a gas chamber and push the button? Well, other than the KKK or Muslims. (If you were offended by that, then it was a joke. If you weren't, then it wasn't.)

The attraction is with the courage of men, not the killing of men, at least for me.

[joea]

Originally Posted by Heibges

Folks like Norman Mailer in "Naked and the Dead", pointed out there was very little difference between the bad guys and us.

Again I disagree very strongly, but then I guess that's my last word.

Edit: NOT

[kurtz]

Originally Posted by Camaero

Now what about the SS and the boys who were responsible for the Jews? Those people, and anyone like them, I will never respect or feel sorry for. They all deserve to die a thousand times over in horrible ways.

See what I mean? Would anyone play a game where you got to heard Jews into a gas chamber and push the button? Well, other than the KKK or Muslims. (If you were offended by that, then it was a joke. If you weren't, then it wasn't.)

The attraction is with the courage of men, not the killing of men, at least for me.

The last part you've put better than anyone else I've heard has done.

As for the SS the first draft of those was men who wanted to be special forces and often aquited themselves with honour, although, perhaps later in the war they became a haven for the mentally ill.

Just for a moment watch this;


Okay it's for comedy, but surely people didn't sign up to be baddies?

Mike

[fatty]

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

Somehow, I don't think most of them were helping Hitler. They were probably more interested in helping Germany. By your logic, any American who currently feels the occupation of Iraq is wrong should run and help the Iraqi insurgents.

And I don't get why you like Marko Ramius. Sure, the death of his wife was very tragic, but let's face it, if an American Captain lost his wife to incompetence in the American government's health system and the Captain decided to take revenge on the "American State" by taking his Ohio to Russia as a result, Tom Clancy would be blasting him right alongside everyone else.

Marko Ramius is not punishing the Soviet State so much as he's punishing all of the Soviet Union's people for his one wife's death. It is not noble. It is sick.

Hi sir, thanks for your reply. Firstly I think you read into my Ramius analogy a bit too much. The point I was attempting to make is that while I appreciate that most u-boat commanders were nazis, they were not popping their hatches and surrendering/defecting - as Ramius did. Even if the commanders were interested in helping Germany and not Hitler, they're embarked on an offensive war - their objective is not (at least, not until ~1944) the defence of the Fatherland, but to choke out shipping to England to resume an aggressive expansion across Europe.

For the America-Iraq example, I think if the U.S. was systematically destroying entire cultures then the logic would follow that you should join the insurgents or at the very least not participate in combat operations. But they aren't, so it's a little different.

[kiwi_2005]

I heard once that someone was making a mod where you play as the nazis in Call of Duty 2 for the PC, dont know if it ever finished but i would of played it without a second thought.