The morality behind playing as "Nazis" in SH3
 

This post is in no way meant to offend anyone.

I have recently been involved in a discussion in the thread concerning the setting for SH5.

In that thread a post had been made by someone saying that they hate to play as a Nazi. I pointed out that not all Germans were Nazis and that the U-boat crews were brave men who were sent to their certain deaths.

I was not defending Nazis or suggesting that they are morally sound people. I was simply trying to look at the situation from the point of view of the men who actually had to fight and suggest that they were not climbing into their subs with swastika armbands.

There then proceeded a discussion during which many issues of morality were raised, where I think I was accused of having no moral compass and of basically sitting on the fence. Funny that seeing as I am a pacifist and believe that we should all try to live together in peace and harmony.

Can I just point out to anyone who is interested, a few facts which I believe illustrate how it was not just the Nazis who were the big bad wolf in history and therefore back up my view that we can all be as bad as one another given half a chance and that very few people in the world can confidently stand up and say that their country has never been involved in immoral activities:-

It was the Assyrians who first used mass forced resettlement of a population for their own territorial gains.

The Romans forcefully expanded into a massive empire over many centuries and hated the Christians.

The Vikings raided countries throughout Europe and created settlements wherever they went.

Napoleon was responsible for gaining France huge portions of Europe and expanding their empire.

Between the 11th and 16th centuries there were the Crusades where a huge army of devout Christians went to the Holy lands to forcefully take them back from the Muslims. A holy war which I think is what the hard-line Muslims seem to be trying to throw back at the western world and everyone is complaining about (hey, we started it).

Between 1915 and 1917 the Turks entered into a policy of Genocide and wiped nearly a million Armenians off the face of the planet.

For centuries the English fought their way around the world taking vast continents under their control and effectively turning countries into slaves for the gain of the British empire.

The British, French and Dutch invaded the USA, slaughtering (some argue Genocide) and relocated the indigenous peoples who had been there for approximately 30 thousand years.

Spain and Portugal invaded South America. (that’s why they all speak Spanish and Portuguese over there).

The French invaded Canada (that’s why there are French Canadians).


The British invaded Australia and began widespread slaughter and relocation of the Aborigines who had been there for between 40 and 70 thousand years.

Genghis Khan created one of the most powerful empires in history, not always peacefully I’m sure.

The Americans used to ship thousands of "Negros" (I don't like that word at all) across the world and sold them into slavery. A situation which was still echoing through society until the 60’s and 70’s.

During the Spanish civil war the Americans supplied military hardware to the Franco regime. Franco was a dictator just like Hitler, Mussolini or Stalin.

Stalin who was allied with the UK and USA in WW2 was responsible for the deaths of approximately 20 million people (makes Hitler look like an amature). Does anyone object to playing as a Russian in IL-2 because Stalin murdered 20 million?

Countries which at one time or another have been accused of war crimes include - Canada, France, Japan, the Soviet Union, UK, USA and Yugoslavia.

Admiral Donitz was accused of war crimes for his use of "Unrestricted Submarine Warfare". He received no punishment after it came to light that both the UK & USA had issued similar orders.

The firebombing of Dresden (always a touchy subject) is thought to have killed between 25 & 35 thousand people and was not proved to have any significant military facilities.

The US atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki (another very contentious subject) together killed approximately 250 - 300 thousand non military personnel in a split second with many tens of thousand deaths afterwards attributed to the radiation produced.

Wernher von Braun was a member of the Nazi party but welcomed with open arms by the USA as they needed his expertise to allow them to develop a delivery method for their new found nuclear might. I guess he must have been one of the "OK to be a Nazi Nazis".

The USA backed Ho Chi Minh during WW2 and then turned the tides and tried to defeat him in Vietnam.

The USA also supplied military aid to Iran during the Iran/Iraq war but are now trying to justify a means to enter into a war with them as they are now classed as being in the “axis of terror”.

The Irish were fighting a terrorist war with Britain for many years, trying to secure independence. The USA provided financial backing and military hardware to assist them in their terror campaign (war on terror anyone?).

North Korea has one of the worst human rights policies with approximately 200 thousand people held in detention camps (does the world try and stop them?).

Should I mention the apartheid system in South Africa and the imprisonment into labour camps of people who spoke out against this system, most notably Nelson Mandela who spent nearly 30 years in prison for his beliefs?

How about Saddam Hussein and the chemical weapon attack on the Kurdish people.

Idi Armein who is thought to have been responsible for 300 to 500 thousand deaths.

Tito and his concentration camps.

Pinochets’ dictatorship.

The Ayatollah Khomeini.

Galtieri and the estimated 30 thousand political objectors who simply disappeared.

The list could go on and on.

I find it amusing that whenever the Gulf war and the way in which the west justified going to war with Iraq (to secure oil rights for the next few decades? no, really?), people always knee jerk and suggest that what is being hinted at is that it is all Bush’s fault, Hey wake up guys, we have one too, ever heard of Tony Blair?

Whilst on the subject of the Bush administration. They have a pretty poor human rights reputation for what is going on down in Guantanamo.

If there was no Nationalism in the world there would be no need for borders, national anthems and national flags. Most countries in the world are nationalistic by default.

So, when you are discussing the morals of playing as a German submariner, when you are saying that if you don't agree with something you should fight against it, when you are suggesting that people have no moral compass and when you are on your soap box shouting about how great it is to be a citizen in (insert country here) because they have done no wrong, have a look at some history.

History has been filled with dictators and genocidal maniacs from many countries and many political persuasions. Take a better look at the world around you and don’t get too over emotional about history. What’s done is done and we must try to be positive and move on with a view to taking care of each other and our planet.

We have a special forum reserved for topics like this. It's called 'General Topics'.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/foru...ysprune=&f=175

Its simple....U-boats were commanded and crewed by brave men who, unfortunately, were fighting for the death and destruction of free civilizations.

BTW... you didn't happen to mention the genocide Japanese occupiers perpetrated upon the civilian population of Nanking, China..... You know...the infamous "Rape of Nanking"?

The A-bombs were the Japs getting their Karma back.

Jesus Christ, give it a rest. And leave that discussion where it was, I don't want to repeat myself. Or better yet, heed what Sailor Steve said. I'm sick of political discussions on the internet. Makes you learn more about people than you ever wanted to.

This topic has been talked about many times, but feel free.

Not again please lock someone...:nope::damn:

1.- I don't understand what this thread is doing here, it should go to the general topics forum

2.- I fail to understand what you are trying to say. You seem to have done a post to justify your opinions, yet because it is disconnected from the thread where the discussion was going on, I probably don't get where you are going to.:-?

3.- History shows, that's right, how many different nations used violence as the main mean to ensure their expansion and supremacy. It's in human nature to do that, after all. I agree with it.

4.- In SH3 you don't play as nazi, you play as a U-Boot commander who doesn't have to be a nazi, and who is fighting to avoid that his country, where is family and beloved ones are, loses a war with all that implies.

My 4 cents

You have many contradictions in your post and inaccuracies. Some examples:

The USA also supplied military aid to Iran during the Iran/Iraq war but are now trying to justify a means to enter into a war with them as they are now classed as being in the “axis of terror”.

You are talking about two different governments, with the only link as being the same land mass here. The US backed the Shaw of Iran, but when Kohoemeni overthrough the Shaw, that is when the US turned its back.

Between the 11th and 16th centuries there were the Crusades where a huge army of devout Christians went to the Holy lands to forcefully take them back from the Muslims. A holy war which I think is what the hard-line Muslims seem to be trying to throw back at the western world and everyone is complaining about (hey, we started it).

This was not started by the Christians. You must be getting your history from the Muslims or something. This was in response to the Muslims ever expanding their own territory - especially into Spain and surrounding countries.


The Americans used to ship thousands of "Negros" (I don't like that word at all) across the world and sold them into slavery. A situation which was still echoing through society until the 60’s and 70’s.

This was mostly a Brisitsh endevour who then turned around and sold them to the US for work on US plantations. The rounding up of the slaves themselves was not even really the work of the British, but the work of the people of the very own countries these people were native from. Nice brotherhood they have. Also, loose the PC garbage. Its a word and its only a negative word due to PC'ness.


Countries which at one time or another have been accused of war crimes include - Canada, France, Japan, the Soviet Union, UK, USA and Yugoslavia.

Yes - Many countries have been accused falsely of war crimes. Some of these countries in your list include Canada, the UK, and the USA. The reason? Some people think war is a crime in itself. To constitute a war crime of a country involves a country giving an explicite order to do something against the Geneva convention. Inidividual soldiers acting on their own accord does not make a whole country guilty of war crimes. Some people just don't get that however.

The firebombing of Dresden (always a touchy subject) is thought to have killed between 25 & 35 thousand people and was not proved to have any significant military facilities.

People don't seem to get that civilians in a war are not protected. They actually can be of military value because you break the will of the people, you break the back of the country. I beleive they are a teir 5 target in the scheme of things. Teir 1 targets would be like C & C, headqaurters, etc.

Anyway, I could go on and on about this, but you get the idea.

-S

OK (he says with hands held high). I apologise if I've upset anyone, covered old ground, posted in the wrong forum or used gross historical innacuracies. No offense meant to anyone.

I'm not a politically motivated person and I guess I have a poor understanding of why people would want to have a war.

I'll shut up now and go and play SH4

Here's what I will say:

Any good, sane simulation gamer knows the difference between 'realism' and 'reality'. Simulation gamers are generally distinguished not only by their level of obsessiveness over detail, but also their overall maturity.

So, any mature simulation player that can't, at the end of the day, distinguish playing the Nazis from supporting the Nazis should probably seek counseling :hmm:

This subject has been talked over dozens of times already. And like stated already, not every german in WWII were nazis, they had no choice to not fight (well, they had and it was death). And Uboat arm was one of the least politically affected arms of the german military.

So, uh...people actually claimed that playing SH3 makes you pro-Nazi? C'mon people, you ever heard of videogames? In closing, I'd like to say I agree with the op here. Noone is innocent, and few are good guys. Some just hide their bad side better than others.

Erm - Nah I've done this before,but hey - you guys be my guest:D

I had pizza last night and went to see "At Worlds End" the Pirates 3 movie. I had a really good time ... :p

I don't want to offend anyone either. :cool:

Why don't we lock the thread before it's time or just say, "Hello" :up:

This thread will stay open unless there is behavioral cause to close it. If we can tolerate 22,549 discussions about Iraq, we can have 5 discussions about games and fascism.

EDIT: I would appreciate, since newer members are not clarvoyant, if our upstanding regulars could refrain from decapitating the newbies if they start a topic that has been discussed before. Do try to be, at minimal, civil.

Thanks,
The Management