Type XXI? The saviour?

[Sailor Steve]

And if they had had Me-262s in 1940 the Battle Of Britain would have been a cinch.

Reminds of a line from the movie Timerider: upon seeing the rider on his dirt bike displaced to the 1880s, the outlaw/cowboy states "A machine! A wheel machine! If General Lee had thet machine, the South would 'a won the war!"

[Tachyon]

Great, we started discussing the Type XXI and end up with the Me-252. Who knows where we would be if I started a topic on the origins of man?

[Hartmann]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

And if they had had Me-262s in 1940 the Battle Of Britain would have been a cinch.

Reminds of a line from the movie Timerider: upon seeing the rider on his dirt bike displaced to the 1880s, the outlaw/cowboy states "A machine! A wheel machine! If General Lee had thet machine, the South would 'a won the war!"

a m62 not would be possible but yes a japanese ZERO.

the 109 has a limited range in the brittain battle, it can go far inside the islands and it was a problem.

with the zero, adapted for the long distances of the pacific , the battle could be different.

[Stealth Hunter]

Perhaps it could have been the saviour of the Kreigsmarine and Germany. The only bad comments I have on it are that it lacks a deckgun that is used against ships and it lacks a stern torpedo tube. Lets face it, if I have a ship on my tail I expect to be able to defend myself rather than have to round about over and over while diving and surfacing trying to shake the enemy off my tail.

EDIT: Germany would have benefitted in my opinion if they had Focke Wulf fighters in 1940 and Me-323's. The Me's would land troops, tanks, and supplies in Britain's field regions and be covered by the Wulf's which had superior cannons and mg fire (6 cannons and 2 mg's). Not only that, but the Wulf's were fuel friendly meaning they could go quite a distance in bad weather and be very effective at the same time against the allies. The air battles in Russia showed its superiority. The motor of the Zero was bugged and its fuel lines were lightly armored. A single burst from a Corsair could rip the wings off a Zero in seconds and ignite a fire. The Japanese at tactics in the air sucked big time.

[Dan0859]

The big question here is logistics. If Germany had sufficient numbers of subs, whether they were XXI's or not, the British wouldn't have been able to win the Battle of Britian, as they wouldn't have had the supplies needed. The Battle of Britian was an extremely close thing as it was. The RAF was literally at the end of it's logistical rope when Hitler decided to stop targeting the RAF airfields, radar installations, etc. Their ability to continue fighting was estimated to be a matter of several days. They simply didn't have enough planes, pilots, supplies, etc. Yes, the Germans had taken heavy losses, but they were better off at that point than the Brits were. Had the Brits lost the Battle of Britian, they probably would have been forced to accept some sort of negotiated peace, which is what Hitler wanted in the first place. The US would have lost it's staging grounds for the invasions in N. Africa, Italy and France. Trying to stage a cross-Atlantic amphibious invasion to retake Britian wouldn't have even been possible until years later.
Much the same thing applies to the Eastern Front. The invasion of the USSR started some 6 weeks late, as the Germans had to deal with the Balkans and Greece before the invasion took place ("Thank you, Benito!"). This forced the Germans to spend time, men and supplies that she really couldn't afford to.
Even so, the Germans could have pulled it off. Had they taken Moscow, they would have deprived the Soviets of their only supply route for all of the Eastern Front. Every railroad entering into, as well as within Russia, ran through Moscow. You couldn't take a train from city A to city B without going to Moscow first. It's still true today, just look at a map.
Had the Germans taken Moscow, the Soviets wouldn't have had any way to transport any significant amount of men or materials. They wouldn't have had the means to put together any large-scale organized resistance to the Germans. Also, just for the record, the Germans had no problems setting up proxy governments in the USSR (Ukraine, for example). The Russians were hated by a lot of people, who were more than willing to cooperate with the Germans.
As far as the A bomb is concerned, without the Brits bombing the German research facilities and heavy water supplies, the Germans would have had it before we did. Any guesses what would have happened to an American invasion force headed to Britian if the Germans had nuclear V-1 and V-2 rockets?
So, yes, I think in a "what if" scenario, if the Germans had adequate numbers of XXI's (or subs in general), it would have been very possible for them to have won the war. Britian would have been neutralized, the Americans would have been years away from being able to take any effective action against them, and the Germans would have been fighting on only one front.

[Corsair]

Originally Posted by Stealth Hunter

EDIT: Germany would have benefitted in my opinion if they had Focke Wulf fighters in 1940 and Me-323's. The Me's would land troops, tanks, and supplies in Britain's field regions and be covered by the Wulf's which had superior cannons and mg fire (6 cannons and 2 mg's). Not only that, but the Wulf's were fuel friendly meaning they could go quite a distance in bad weather and be very effective at the same time against the allies. The air battles in Russia showed its superiority. The motor of the Zero was bugged and its fuel lines were lightly armored. A single burst from a Corsair could rip the wings off a Zero in seconds and ignite a fire. The Japanese at tactics in the air sucked big time.

For being a long time flight simmer and reading a lot, I can assure you that at the start of the Pacific war, the Zero was far superior to the F4s, P40s and P39s the US had on the other side, and that their pilots had a lot more experience. No plane had armored fuel lines, it was armor plates protecting the fuel tanks, and above all the lack of self-sealing tanks was the problem. Of course it was nimble and unarmored but it could draw circles around US planes and climb faster (as a US pilot said, it was like we were walking up the stairs and they took the lift...) The Corsair came in much later and was in the beginning more dangerous for its pilots than for the Japanese, hence his nickname "Ensign Eliminator"... Its role has been I think very exaggerated thru movies and TV series, the F6F was the plane that scored by far the majority of victories.
Imho, no FW190 had 6 cannons, but only 4, even the late war Doras. As far as the Russian front is concerned, I don't think it was superior to the late VVS fighters like the Yak3 or the LA7. I would any day much prefer flying a Bf 109 Gustav - G6 to G14... I don't like the lack of front visibility in the FW190...But it's just me...

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Tachyon

Great, we started discussing the Type XXI and end up with the Me-252. Who knows where we would be if I started a topic on the origins of man?

To you, Tachyon, I apologize profusely, because you were absolutely right. To everyone else who jumped on my apparently ill-concieved comment, my point was that YOU CAN SPECULATE HOW THIS OR THAT MIGHT HAVE CHANGED THE WAR, BUT IT'S ONLY IDLE SPECULATION AND NOTHING MORE!!! That's why I included the movie quote, because that kind of guessing is pretty much useless. :rotfl:

[Corsair]

Am also sorry about going from the original Type XXI subject to a comparative study on WWII airplanes... Been hangin' too many years on flight sim forums, it becomes pure reflex...

[P_Funk]

Yes whenever we start trying to reassess one thing often it makes us re-evaluate everything.

The really good what ifs are the ones that were really about instant decisions. Like Alexander deciding to plunge into Darius' lines at the Battle of Issus at the right moment. Or Constantine not falling for Maxentius' ruse at the The Battle of the Pons Milvius.

That stuff is the real what if. Im not sure though how many true single what ifs there could be in modern war... maybe that cabby that swerved just in time to miss Neville Chamberlain in 38:p

So I suppose we all ought to sod off back to the original subject then. Sorry to the guy that started this thread.

[Stealth Hunter]

Then again, once I think about it, the Zero did have superior climb rates and speed. Personally, I feel it was their tactics and design flaws that made them a mediocre aircraft. They were sort of like the Sopwith Camel, a good aircraft IF you could fly well and could master its controls but a bad aircraft for novices.

[P_Funk]

Originally Posted by Stealth Hunter

Then again, once I think about it, the Zero did have superior climb rates and speed. Personally, I feel it was their tactics and design flaws that made them a mediocre aircraft. They were sort of like the Sopwith Camel, a good aircraft IF you could fly well and could master its controls but a bad aircraft for novices.

The ZERO was also made out of paper mache.

[Tachyon]

Lololololol....

Now, we move on to the ZERO from the Me-252 , Keep it up guys !!! LOL

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Oh and Sailor Steve, no apologies needed, I'm an aircraft enthusiast myself, so I enjoyed this discussion. Gotta love those Arado bombers, Zip...Drop Bombs....Zip back . End of Mission.

[Corsair]

Originally Posted by Stealth Hunter

Then again, once I think about it, the Zero did have superior climb rates and speed. Personally, I feel it was their tactics and design flaws that made them a mediocre aircraft. They were sort of like the Sopwith Camel, a good aircraft IF you could fly well and could master its controls but a bad aircraft for novices.

Sorry to jump in again (Tachyon said he did not mind, it had superior climb rate but not speed. In fact speed was the only advantage of US planes as their weight in dive helped them escape. At high speed the Zero was subject to a stiffening of the flaps controls. This is why your only chance in 42 flying US planes is to use energy tactics and never try to get in a turning dogfight. It was only thru team work (the famous Thach weave) that US planes had a match, one on one they had little hope... If you look at the record of some few japanese pilots who made it thru the war, like Saburo Sakai, you have to admit in good hands the Zero was a good airplane.

[Tachyon]

Back to the Type XXI,

How come it could move faster underwater than on the surface? Were frogmen pushing it?

[_Seth_]

Originally Posted by Tachyon

Back to the Type XXI,

How come it could move faster underwater than on the surface? Were frogmen pushing it?

I think it was because it had some gigantic electrical engines, combined with some awesome hydrodynamics. If im not mistaken, it was a diesel-electric sub, so it ran on electricity on the surface too. the Diesels were only used to generate electrical power (i could be wrong on this, though..). :hmm: