Destroyers Discussion (getting rid of pin point drops)

[gouldjg]

If you read my previous thread, it may or may not help shed some light on the noise factor and possible open up more clues as to the actual formula or devs team thinking.

[gouldjg]

With regards to active sonar,

Does anyone think it might be worth adding the aspect line from the sensor.cfg to the sim cfg.

I know there already might be a link so I can see no harm in trying.

I just do not know if the acives in the current game are affected by aspect of sub.

[Ducimus]

Its late, right now im not really capable of seeing much further then the end of my nose.

Gonna wrap this up for tonight.

RIght now im of the opinion, for passive sonar were looking at one of the following:

A low noise factor / a higher wave factor

a higher wave factor / a lower noise factor

low noise factor / 0 wave factor.

As so far my best results have been the following:

.4 Noise / .5 wave

1/3rd goes red at 2700 meters
slow goes red at 1800 meters
silent goes red at 700ish.

0.5 noise / 0.5 wave
1/3rd goes red at 2300 meters
slow goes red at 1500 meters
silent goes red at ..err well i got detected somewhere inside 1K

0.5 noise / 0.4 wave
1/3rd goes red at 2000 meters (give or take a couple hundred)
slow goes red at 1500 meters
SS, he has to step near you. I got detected, if i had gone to all stop i probably wouldnt have.

Of course this begs two questions:

1.) should you be detectable with passive sonar at silent speed? Most will probably answer with no, and itend to agree to a point.

2.) Just how much will wave factor effect DD detection under normal gameing conditions, since most of the time the weather is rotton?


Personnlay i think in My own game, im going to zero out the wave factor, for three reasons.

1.) I wasnt detected at silent speed in my tests.
2.) its easier to adjust DD detection to a given range
3.) it removes a random variable (hopefully)

Now for any Offical mod, im not sure what stance people want to take. But for tonight i think im gonna call it a night. Although im gonna run one more test, i think the optimal noise filter with out the wave factor resides somwehre in between 0.5 and 0.6 i think.

[Kaleunt]

In all your speculations you are all forgotting an inportant third factor.,i.e
The surface (m²) of the detected object. This parameter play an important
role in the detection formula.

[Ducimus]

Well im about ready to give up.

What the hell is surface (m squared?)

My goal is simply to widen the area in which DD's can detect you through passive sonar. Stock they simply just dont do the job. You have to literally go out of your way to get their attention.

Maybe i should s tick with the orgianal ratio of 1 noise factor and 0.5 wave factor but scale it back.

What im REALLY wondering is, what direction do we want the wave factor to go? My worry is pull it too far in one direction and will still have deaf escorts.

This much i know:

Noise factor: 0 is the loudest. If you want a escort to hear a dolphin fart in the indian ocean from biscay bay... zero this out. 1 is the default. Why 1 i dunno.

Wave factor: 0 is off but 0.005 is REALLY low. In otherwords, if you want to decrease the distance at which a DD can detect you, enter a really small decimal here. If you want to increas the distance a DD can detect you, enter a larger decimal. Enter a 1 and he can pick you up pretty quickly.


Thats all fine and good, but what the hell is it doing?

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

What you *should* ( i hope) experience then is normal behavior up until you get close to the DD (im gussing around 1200-2000 meters) at which distance he should be able to detect you no matter how slow or silent you go.

but with active sonar not pasive...... or i am wrong ?

About noise factor, will be great if we can found a value so when they are 3 or more Dds, the noise they make plays against them.

About wave factor i think so it must to be important, in example look at the Bisckmark mission, with that sorm their pasive sensors must to benear to deaf.

Are you sure the wave factor is a inverse value ? as lower is more effective ?

Originally Posted by Col7777

Ducimus,

Early on when we first started these tests, just out of shear curiosity I doubled all the values in the sim.cfg and didn't notice much difference, I only did one test though.
I didn't mess with anything in the Sensors folder, I was just messing around to see what would happen.

sorry Cool but i cant uderstand you well to help, but if i dont understand bad, remember we had two problems during tests, the renamed back-up files, and the non zeroed sensors into AI_Sensors.dat file, this both dont let the game take on our changes.

[Kaleunt]

The surface (m²) of the detected object is the parameter called
"minsurface" in the AI_sensor.dat file, "surface" in the sensor.dat file and
EnemySurfaceFactor in the sim.cfg. It is well precised in the SH3sim.act file that if this value is set to "0" in the AI_sensors.dat or Sensor.dat files
then the value from Sim.cfg file is taken (the EnemySurfaceFactor value
to be precise). This parameter works in conjonction with the sensitivity and range parameters.So i think that in all your test you are missing something if you don't take this factor in count.

[CB..]

pehaps the trick might be to co-ordinate the sensors in what might on paper seem to be a highly un "realistic" (gawd i hate realism debates)
fashion---in order to create flexible gameplay--

trouble is with all this we are in the end playing a game---if it is concretely possible to creep into a convoy at silent running torp a few ships then creep out again-- and we can set this up as 90 - 100% reliable--then things could get really dull gameplay wise--

personally what i'm considering is to nerf the radar down to around 6,000 metres--(remebering that Erich Topp interview where he said he lost a DD with radar in the fog at a lesser distance than this)

setting the max distance for the hydrophone at about the same distance

then punching a huge hole in the hydrophones via the min distance by limiting it to perhaps 1500 metres minimum distance

filling that hole with the sonar set to go from around 1300 metres max distance to about 100 metres min distance

then sitting back and see-ing how the AI trys to deal with this set up--

from a pure gameplay point of view---i want to be detected (i don't care if i get detected every single time) as long as i have a reasonable chance of escaping detection again and can if i'm clever get thru to the target ship and make the kill at least 50% of the time

adding in the noise incrementally to fuzzy up the boudaries for the sensors and using the waves factor to create some tactical advantages to attacking in choppy conditions--

if the sensor edits can now be relied on to consistently stick in game then lots of options become simple matters of adjusting range etc--
the temptation might be to try to get TOO fancy about it--

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Of course this begs two questions:

1.) should you be detectable with passive sonar at silent speed? Most will probably answer with no, and itend to agree to a point.

2.) Just how much will wave factor effect DD detection under normal gameing conditions, since most of the time the weather is rotton?


Personnlay i think in My own game, im going to zero out the wave factor, for three reasons.

1.) I wasnt detected at silent speed in my tests.
2.) its easier to adjust DD detection to a given range
3.) it removes a random variable (hopefully)

I think so, at silent running and slow, you must to be ner to undetectable if you dont have the bad luck to be pinged.

It is interested, because force you to perform a plnified attack as in real life. And it is had to put ypur sub in a good attack position at silent or slow speeds.

Then if you move at standar speed, and detected, you will be enforced to go silento or slow, but they will start up a search pattern around yur last position.

I note, you cant scape of these seach patterns at silent speed, they star the seach patterns about at last detection place, and star moving the pattern along your calculated last direction, they move this patterns at determined speed, at silent running, they definitivelly arrive over you.

At slow too.

It means they move the patern at about between 3 and 5 knots, wich corresponding to you silent, slow and even 1/3 speeds.

I am clear detected at 1/3, but i still green at slow, i neeed to adjust a dirty green in slow speed, it is :

silent speed(no jobs, reloads or repairs) : green
slow speed : dirty green
1/3 : red

Slow speed is at limit needed to sacpe of their serch pattern speed, you must to use the somer to move them at your back always and scape.

Normally i use the map, and attempt contatly to have the red lines at back, and when they pass over me, if it is an alone DDs, i move flank under him, and follow him turning 90*, when he make the next pass he dot found me at spected place.

If you let the little sub become red with silent or slow, you never scape from the search pattern speed, they always turning and turning moving along a line over you.

This is one reason of the pinpoint attacks.

We need to overpass that seach pattern speed to sacpe, it do not means a constant speed, instead an average speed, when on their seach beams, we need silent running and be undetected, and when in the shadow zones of their sensors, we nedd to be able to move fast, finally in average we nedd to move at almost 4 or 5 knots to scape from pinpoint attacks.

[HEMISENT]

Ducimus
Following your line of thought on the noise factor/wave factor. This may be a partial reason why I experience mostly dumb DD behavior. I have been using the Big Wave mod(1.5x & 2x) since it came out. Also been playing with TT's inspector to play with waves. Also recently been adjusting the waves amplitude and waves attenuation in sim.cfg.
Just a thought.

Guys all your work is greatly appreciated. Please keep it up.

[Reece]

A little late in responding Red, but thanks for the 'heads up'
It is rather confusing how so many settings seem to effect each other, would be great if the devs gave us a hint at how it's all put together!! but somehow I doubt that, will keep my eyes peeled to this thread to the end, very qurious to how this pans out.
Thanks all.

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by HEMISENT

Ducimus
Following your line of thought on the noise factor/wave factor. This may be a partial reason why I experience mostly dumb DD behavior. I have been using the Big Wave mod(1.5x & 2x) since it came out. Also been playing with TT's inspector to play with waves. Also recently been adjusting the waves amplitude and waves attenuation in sim.cfg.
Just a thought.

Guys all your work is greatly appreciated. Please keep it up.

Good point, may be wave magnifivation from Timetraveller, and wave amplitude and atenuation from CB make diferences in behavior on many of us.

Originally Posted by Reece

A little late in responding Red, but thanks for the 'heads up'
It is rather confusing how so many settings seem to effect each other, would be great if the devs gave us a hint at how it's all put together!! but somehow I doubt that, will keep my eyes peeled to this thread to the end, very qurious to how this pans out.
Thanks all.

It is nothing, stay here, make your test and comment your opinion......

Originally Posted by Kaleunt

In all your speculations you are all forgotting an inportant third factor.,i.e
The surface (m²) of the detected object. This parameter play an important
role in the detection formula.

I think so it is taked in account by the sim, with Enemy Surface Factor, and you are right, we asume the surface is the correct and we are not playing with this value. Another help in tweak.

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Well im about ready to give up.

What the hell is surface (m squared?)

Wave factor: 0 is off but 0.005 is REALLY low. In otherwords, if you want to decrease the distance at which a DD can detect you, enter a really small decimal here. If you want to increas the distance a DD can detect you, enter a larger decimal. Enter a 1 and he can pick you up pretty quickly.


Thats all fine and good, but what the hell is it doing?

I soupose it is the surface you show to the sonar beam, not present in pasive sonar, but present in sight, radar and active sonar.

I think so it introduce a some level of atenuation in detection, is not the same if you are pinged from side, than if you are pinged from front. You dont show the same area or surface to the ping beam.


About the waves....... you are right, a samaller value reduce detection, at point to make DDs near to deaf.

Wave factor has a very big influence on detection, i can believe how much it reduce or increase the DDs capability.

I am trying with 0.8 right now, and they are very deadly another time.

Be ware with WAVE FACTOR

Thanks for trick.

[timetraveller]

Guys,

#1===========================
I made a tweak file for the sensor "noise" values in Sensors.sim, effecting the player sub.

www.delraydepot.com/tt/Sensors_sim.zip

Unzip and save file to the Mini Tweaker's \TweakFiles folder.

I don't know what each of the sensors are, so I've named then Sensor#1, Sensor#2, etc.

Other stuff is in there too, like Snorkel, etc.

#2===========================

I think I've uncovered the sensitivity value in AI_Sensors.dat too.

www.delraydepot.com/tt/AI_Sensors_dat.zip

Unzip and save file to the Mini Tweaker's \TweakFiles folder.

I've added both to the Mini Tweaker's TweakFiles package.

Hope this helps.

TT

..

[Col7777]

I just tried something again for the heck of it, I copied and pasted the entire entries from the stock Sensor file in to the stock Sim.cfg file.

I ran a test mission and I got a message of "Ship spotted," I was in external camera view and there was no ships in sight, then after a good few minutes I got a sound contact, again no ships in sight.
After about 6-10 minutes I got smoke on the horizon.
When I got close at peri depth and running silent my stealth meter only went red as the DD passed me by at around 300mts then it turned green again after he passed.
To cut the story short I escaped unharmed, so are these Sensor and Sim things for the player sub, I mean why did I get ship spotted and the sound contact so early?

I removed the old stock sensor file too btw.

[CB..]

i can see i am liable to end up being the "lone voice in the wildneress" again on the sensor edits-- but it's allways good to have an alternative point of view on gameplay--so here goes i'll hold my ground--


i set my maximum hydrophone distances to stock--and set the minimum hydrophone distances to 1000 metres---

(same wierd set of cfg entrys as before)

found a convoy (again in full career mode campaign play)

and got into position ahead of it--- submerged-at silent- at around 7000 metres the green sub went orange---at around 4000 metres it went red--"we have been etc etc" and it stayed full on red ALL THE TIME---

two DD's came racing out from the head of the convoy to investigate
made numerous close DC runs -- but they were obviouslya little confused by their sensor readings-- the attacking DD lost any hydrophone contact at 1000 metres and was relying on the more distant DD's for up-dates--

and even tho the little red sub remain full on red i was able to shake them--i headed gradually into the convoy and was constantly being harried and DC'd by escorts and constantly being able to shake them again--

here's something very VERY good i can say with some certainty--the AI is very VERY clever indeed---when given something to actually think about --it does actually think about it--it's not a complete slave to it's sensor readings ---

i was really pleased to see that as the attacking DD came close- beacuse it lost hydrophone contact with me at such a long range --it instead of making one DC drop -- it made three DC drops-- along the line of it's last hydrophone contact--- and it didn't react to any turns i made during it's final run (which takes care of that issue or offers some thing to think about at least)

it was fascinating to watch the DD's varying their DC drops to try to compensate for the lack of precise information on my exact position--

not just the one DC drop per run--as is usual

three entirely seperate drops on the same run---

and this wasn't predictable --one DD would consider that it had a good enough contact to drop his full load in one go--another would be more tentative and spread his load over two or three drops during the same run--a good three or four seconds passing between each seperate drop--

another would break of at the last second and not make a drop at all--

all the time the DD's were (in gameplay terms at least) exhibiting very human confusion as to which DD's sensor readings were the most accurate-- the problem being for them that the more distant DD's had better sensor contact that the closer ones--

sometimes the distant ones would allmost appear to get fed up and charge in to make a attack of their own---

i was caught well and truly napping by this tactic- i wacthed a corvette line up for it's dc run then steam right over head without dropping--- so i didn't maneuver thinking i was safe for the moment--i didn't spot the Clemson hurtling in at 24 knots ahead of me from distance -- and he did make a dangerous DC drop-- this dance kept up for a good hour or so---totally unpredictable -- even using the external camera i wasn't able to tell which DD i should be the most worried about--yet they were still working as a team --they had no choice- and even tho they were struggling a lot with the blind spot in their hydrophones- their tactics were not unintelliegnt - challenging and to my satisfaction allmost entirely HUMAN LOL!!!

meaning i was having to do some GENUINE thinking of my own ,not just roleplaying being uber commander of the month lol--all in all the most entertaining and human encounter with a set of convoy escorts i've ever had in a sub sim--

my main concern as this progresed was that i wouldn't be able to escape completely from the encounter---the long distance semi uber hydrophone becoming another catch 22--but i needn't have worried--
because the DD's have their traditional blind spot directly behind them -as the convoy got further away this blind spot natural gets larger and larger--
untill quite naturally even tho i had two clemsons and a corvette coming and going making dc runs at close range -- the little red sub went back to green and stayed that way--- and the DD's one by one left the attack and went back to the convoy ( the distant DD's whoose hydrophone contacts were providing the information for the attacks now being far enought away for me to comfortably find their blind spot ( and the retresting DD's steaming at flank away from me enabled me to place myself in their blind spot as their hydrophones came on line at disatnce--

problems--?
one--no pinging--dunno why--

thoughts on this--

no pinging-- at all-- either the DD hydrophones CAN DETECT DEPTH-- pretty disasterous stuff ---or the games use of the pinging sound and "enemy is pinging us" warning is slightly unreliable--how else could they have known my depth--( and they did know it)

on the gameplay side--and IMO- in normal campaign gameplay--
you steam out of port-- and can spend 3 or 4 hours even at maximum time excelleration finding and getting into position on a convoy--

another hour or even two conducting the attack--(at the least)
and another hour or so getting back to port

so it's quite often a major investment of time to conduct a career patrol--- do we really want to spend all that time and not have a bit of fun with the DD's?

what ever edits we make we need to remember that the events were testing for - the peformance of the DD's et al are normally going to be experienced by the average player in the context of their campaign
careers--- i prefer to get detected id don't care if it's "arcade" ive just spent four hours finding this dang convoy and it had better be worth the effort gameplay wise- lol!!