The proposed health care bill thread (merged)

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

so what does that have to do with doubling peoples taxes so they can pay for their neighbors doctor visits?

Doubling of taxes?


Really?

[Platapus]

I normally do not forward post crap I receive in E-mail. But this struck me as somewhat humourous.

The following is a humourous posting about the health care issue

The American Medical Association has weighed in on the new health care plan being developed by the Obama Team.

The Allergists voted to scratch it, but the Dermatologists advised not to make any rash moves.

The Gastroenterologists had sort of a gut feeling about it, but the Neurologists thought the Administration had a lot of nerve.

The Obstetricians felt they were all laboring under a misconception.

Ophthalmologists considered the idea shortsighted.

Pathologists yelled, "Over my dead body!" while the Pediatricians said, 'Oh, Grow up!'

The Psychiatrists thought the whole idea was madness, while the Radiologists could see right through it.

Surgeons decided to wash their hands of the whole thing.

The Internists thought it was a bitter pill to swallow, and the Plastic Surgeons said, "This puts a whole new face on the matter."

The Podiatrists thought it was a step forward, but the Urologists were pissed off at the whole idea.

The Anesthesiologists thought the idea was a gas, and the Cardiologists didn't have the heart to say no.

In the end, the Proctologists won out, leaving the entire decision up to the *******s in Washington.

:rotfl:

We now return you to the normal bitchin and whinin.

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

Doubling of taxes?


Really?

i know your hero says he can deliver on all these goods all the while lowering taxes.

but wait and see

doubling everyones taxes might be an exaggeration.

perhaps i should have said "significantly increasing taxes"

and i do mean significantly!

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

Almost half of everything goes into "military spending and cost of past wars". I'd say that's a pretty big piece of the pie.

I'd have to question the source of this information. Last I checked, medicare and Social Security, accounting for 52 Trillion in outstanding obligations, and National debt as well as stimulus money will easily trump any military spending by a large margin. That blue section should be down around 5%.

An example from 2006 at the height of Operations in Iraq and Afganistan showing that being much lower:
http://www.heritage.org/press/commentary/ed041406d.cfm

-S


Here’s a breakdown of how Washington will spend that $23,760 per household:

Social Security/Medicare: $7,875. The 15.3 percent payroll tax, split evenly between the employer and employee, covers most of these costs. This system can remain sustainable only if there are enough workers to support all retirees, which is why it risks collapsing under the weight of 77 million retiring baby boomers. If nothing is done, taxes eventually will need to be raised by the current equivalent of $11,000 per household to pay all promised benefits. The unpredictable costs of the new Medicare drug entitlement could add thousands more to each household’s tax bill.

Defense: $4,701. The defense budget covers everything from military salaries to operations in Iraq and Afghanistan to the research, development and acquisition of new technologies. Lawmakers drastically reduced defense spending following the collapse of communism in the early 1990s. The 9/11 attacks reversed this trend, and the $1,900 per household increase since 2001 has returned defense spending to its historical levels.

Low-income programs: $3,579. Nearly half of this spending subsidizes state Medicaid programs that provide health services to poor families. Other low-income spending includes: Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF), food stamps, housing subsidies, child-care subsidies, Supplemental Security Income (SSI) and low-income tax credits. Despite recent rhetoric about “cuts for poor,” anti-poverty spending now tops 3 percent of GDP for the first time ever.

Interest on the federal debt: $1,930. The federal government is $8.2 trillion in debt. It owes $4.9 trillion to public bond owners, and the rest to other federal agencies (mostly to repay the Social Security trust fund, which lawmakers raid annually). Despite rising debt, record-low interest rates have limited costs. As interest rates rise back to normal levels, these costs will spike.

Federal employee retirement benefits: $870. This spending funds the retirement and disability benefits of federal employees, including the military.

Education: $732. Education spending is primarily a state and local function; 9 percent of the total comes from Washington. Federal education spending has surged 137 percent since the 2001 enactment of the No Child Left Behind Act. Most federal dollars are spent on low-income school districts, special education and college student financial aid.

Health research/regulation: $671. This spending is up 78 percent since 2001, and much of this growth is concentrated in the National Institute of Health. This category includes the Food and Drug Administration and dozens of grant programs for health providers.

Veterans’ benefits: $618. The federal government provides income and health benefits to war veterans. Spending is up 56 percent since 2001.

Community and regional development: $456. The $300 per household leap in this category since 2004 comes from the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), which is financing much of the Hurricane Katrina relief.

Highways/mass transit: $402. Most highway and mass-transit spending is financed by the 18.4 cent per-gallon federal gas tax. Washington subtracts an administrative cost and sends this money back to the states with numerous strings attached. Some economists suggest it would be more efficient to let states collect this tax and decide how to spend the money themselves.

Justice administration: $363. Justice spending includes federal attorneys and prisons, as well as law-enforcement grant programs. New homeland security costs have added $80 per household to justice spending.

Unemployment benefits: $338. Unemployment costs fluctuate based on the number of unemployed Americans. This year, unemployment costs are decreasing as job growth continues.

International affairs: $305. This includes foreign economic and military assistance, operation of American embassies abroad, and contributions to organizations such as the United Nations. International spending has doubled since 9/11.

Natural resources/environment: $287. This includes national parks, federal lands, water projects and environmental clean-up.

Agriculture: $235. Despite rhetoric about supporting small family farms, the vast majority of farm subsidies are distributed to large farms with average household incomes over $135,000.

The programs listed above cover $23,362 per household. The remaining $398 is allocated to all other federal programs, including social services, space exploration, air transportation and energy.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Platapus

I normally do not forward post crap I receive in E-mail. But this struck me as somewhat humourous.

The following is a humourous posting about the health care issue

The American Medical Association has weighed in on the new health care plan being developed by the Obama Team.

The Allergists voted to scratch it, but the Dermatologists advised not to make any rash moves.

The Gastroenterologists had sort of a gut feeling about it, but the Neurologists thought the Administration had a lot of nerve.

The Obstetricians felt they were all laboring under a misconception.

Ophthalmologists considered the idea shortsighted.

Pathologists yelled, "Over my dead body!" while the Pediatricians said, 'Oh, Grow up!'

The Psychiatrists thought the whole idea was madness, while the Radiologists could see right through it.

Surgeons decided to wash their hands of the whole thing.

The Internists thought it was a bitter pill to swallow, and the Plastic Surgeons said, "This puts a whole new face on the matter."

The Podiatrists thought it was a step forward, but the Urologists were pissed off at the whole idea.

The Anesthesiologists thought the idea was a gas, and the Cardiologists didn't have the heart to say no.

In the end, the Proctologists won out, leaving the entire decision up to the *******s in Washington.

:rotfl:

We now return you to the normal bitchin and whinin.

:rotfl:

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

I'd have to question the source of this information.

And then you go on to post something from the Heritage Foundation. They're not the most unbiased of sources.

Well if you put for example veterans things and the wars in different pots then it can be made to look like the amount going into actual warfare is smaller.

[Steel_Tomb]

For those who say "why the hell should I fork out my cash etc etc etc" what would happen if you lost your job and could no longer afford the insurance... and a family member of yours becomes ill... I bet you'd be bloody grateful for a state health system then hmm?

I'm sorry, but to me personally the view of "Its my money! miiinee! I don't want to ever help anyone else with a health system" is a very selfish approach to things. Christ the US is one of the wealthiest nations in the world... the least you can do is HELP people instead of counting your pennies and reveling in your wealth at the expense of others who may be desperate for help. Not everyone who might need a state health service will be a junkie or some alchy begging off the street. From what I've read online and on these very forums there are a lot of honest good people in some serious **** because they lost their jobs and can't afford the mortgage on their homes.

The US makes itself out to be a beacon of wealth and living the good life.... maybe it would be even better if you guys decided to go put yourself out JUST A LITTLE BIT to help those maybe not quite so fortunate as yourself!

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

And then you go on to post something from the Heritage Foundation. They're not the most unbiased of sources.

Yet the friends committee is I assume? Check your source. Pot calling the kettle black again, but you prove this to be the case in almost any post you post.

Lets give you the facts though - this site above is the only site that has military spending way off the chart.

The facts:
1 Trillion on Stimulus = nearly 45% of the entire US budget. Where is that factored in? The graphic above has got to be the most skewed biased graphic I have ever seen that is tried to be passed off as fact, when in fact it is a lie of the most massive capacity.

-S

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

Yet the friends committee is I assume? Check your source. Pot calling the kettle black again.

Lets give you the facts though - this site above is the only site that has military spending way off the chart.

The facts:
1 Trillion on Stimulus = nearly 45% of the entire US budget. Where is that factored in? The graphic above has got to be the most skewed biased graphic I have ever seen that is tried to be passed off as fact, when in fact it is a lie of the most massive capacity.

-S

I made no claims to the validity of the Friends Committee. I simply was pointing out the fact that you said they were biased, and then posted something biased in response.

I'm sorry if you don't like it, but it's sloppy debating to call someone out for doing something and then turn around and do the same thing yourself. If pointing that out makes me a troll, so be it.

[SteamWake]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

And then you go on to post something from the Heritage Foundation. They're not the most unbiased of sources.

Perhaps not unbiased but they sure as hell get there facts straight.

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by Steel_Tomb

For those who say "why the hell should I fork out my cash etc etc etc" what would happen if you lost your job and could no longer afford the insurance?

Been there done that got the t-shirt... twice

I WOULD NOT become a gold brickin' pan handler.

I WOULD... do what any other hard working person would do, roll up my sleves, shed my pride and walk my ass down to taco bell or burger king and fill out an application... Work multiple jobs... Move to a part of the country where work is readily available.

There is a help wanted sign in nearly every shop, store, restaurant and fast food joint where I live.

Believe it or not I made more money per year stocking shelves at dollar general than I ever did while putting my $100,000 education to work at a regional airline... The jobs like at dollar general suck... But they pay the bills... if one is in fact desperate... No job is really beneath you.

My money IS mine... It's money I worked hard for, went to school for, worked sh*tty thankless jobs for... Charity should be voluntary, not a federal requirement.

[FIREWALL]

I've noticed in just about every post for Pro Medifare plan, the rebuttle argument is always.... What If... What If...

Or some well taught tactic of going off to left field with a What about , this ,that or the other thing that has nothing to do with the Topic.

Those who use those tactics imo are FREELOADERS full of hot air.

Don't try to tell me I have to pay for your free ride.

Respectfully to members of SS who are from countries that this system works. I am happy for you.

I just don't like it crammed down my throat here in USA as my country is largely based on , Freedom of Choice.

And hopefully will continue to be.

[AngusJS]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

Been there done that got the t-shirt... twice

I WOULD NOT become a gold brickin' pan handler.

I WOULD... do what any other hard working person would do, roll up my sleves, shed my pride and walk my ass down to taco bell or burger king and fill out an application... Work multiple jobs... Move to a part of the country where work is readily available.

There is a help wanted sign in nearly every shop, store, restaurant and fast food joint where I live.

Believe it or not I made more money per year stocking shelves at dollar general than I ever did while putting my $100,000 education to work at a regional airline... The jobs like at dollar general suck... But they pay the bills... if one is in fact desperate... No job is really beneath you.

My money IS mine... It's money I worked hard for, went to school for, worked sh*tty thankless jobs for... Charity should be voluntary, not a federal requirement.

Good thing you didn't get too sick during those times. Good luck paying for major surgery or extended hospital stays on your own.

This isn't about charity, it's not about handouts. It's about fixing a system which does everything in its power to deny coverage, which bankrupts people during the most difficult times of their lives, and which breeds inefficiency and waste.

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

My money IS mine... It's money I worked hard for, went to school for, worked sh*tty thankless jobs for... Charity should be voluntary, not a federal requirement.

I think giving money to the military is charity. It's charity to people like Bush jr, Cheney and the military industrial tycoons. I guess that's the type of charity you're in favour of.