Europe's migrant problem

[Aktungbby]

[QUOTE=u crank;2345475]Most immigrants, legal or otherwise do jobs that most Americans will not do. That's true in America and even way out here on the east coast of Canada. We can't get farm or fish plant workers so immigrants are brought in. Face it man, Americans are not competing for most low paying labor intensive jobs that illegals do. Are you?






[/QUOTE=aktungbby]

But hey! I like my chicken packaged, I speeka Spanish and the los peones nuevos pay into my $ocial $ecurity!

Let all come here! The $ystem always need new members starting at the bottom and workin' ^; payin in to keep the whole economic mirage goin'! Napa grape pickers, my yard man, the house- keeper... Bienvenidos BBY! PS: I used to wash dishes, carried golf bags, swept a few warehouses/unloaded railcars and picked onions in CA for two summers myself; so it's hardly a class distinction. Been there: now it's someone else's turn!

[Betonov]

While does everyone think this will destroy Europe.
It's a continent. It's not like the combined power of islam will tear it up by the tectonic plate and throw it into the sun

Europeans have a tendency to go far right or far left when a crisis hits.
Both scenarios spell trouble for us though.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Betonov

Europeans have a tendency to go far right or far left when a crisis hits.
Both scenarios spell trouble for us though.

Not just Europeans.

[Dan D]

Hathaway, James C.: Moving Beyond the Asylum Muddle, VerfBlog, 2015/9/14, http://www.verfassungsblog.de/en/mov...-asylum-muddle




Short: Revitalize the UNHCR to administer quotas


..It is, of course, patently unfair that countries such as Greece or Hungary be expected to assume most of Europe’s responsibility under the EU’s so-called “first country of arrival” rule, which forces refugees to stay in the first place they arrive – whatever that country’s resources, and whatever protection is realistically available there (or not).


But in all of the talk about the European refugee crisis, we have lost sight of the fact that just three countries bordering Syria – Jordan, Lebanon, and Turkey – have received more than ten times as many Syrian refugees as the rest of the world combined.


Indeed, more than 80% of the world’s refugees live in countries of the less developed world and are guaranteed no financial support from wealthier countries. Nor are these front-line states meaningfully assisted by resettlement.


Of the roughly 14,000,000 refugees in the world last year, only about 100,000 were resettled – with just two countries, the United States and Canada, providing the lion’s share of this woefully inadequate contribution...


Not only governments – but most tragically, even the international refugee agency, UNHCR – have been inattentive to the fact that the drafters of the Convention never intended the treaty to operate in the atomized and uncoordinated way that has characterized most of its nearly 65-year history. To the contrary, the Preamble to the Refugee Convention expressly recognizes that “the grant of asylum may place unduly heavy burdens on certain countries,” such that real global protection “cannot therefore be achieved without international co-operation.” Action to realize this promise in the Refugee Convention’s Preamble is more important now than ever. ...

[Skybird]

After WWII, ins nhort time over 12 million people of german descent had to flee from eastern territories and into war-torn Germany. With 25% of pre-war housing destroyed, no economy and no jobs, hunger being widespread, it is an urban legend that there was a strong culture of welcoming the refugees back then, although these for the most were cultural relatives, sharing speech, religion, historically grown identity, moral values, descent, etc. I know this from first hand witnesses, because the family of my father was one of those refugees that needed to flee. Life of the refugees in Germany was a lousy one, they stood at the very end of the social ladder, had no chance to climb it up until the early 60s, and everybody hated them for picking away from the already scarce resources. The childhood of my father and his older brother, was miserable, sometimes hell.

The people now flooding into Germany, for the most are Muslims, have a totally different socialisation, are educated in completely different and all too often opposing moral values, are a completely different speech tribe, and burst into a Germany that already has according to various studies 400,000 to 700,000 lacking flats and serious budget deficits for investing into education and infrastructure. And the boss of the German labour agency already had to admit that due to the newcomers flooding the labour market, unemployment rate next year must be expected to show a very steep climb. Not even every third seems to qualify for the education standards needed to integrate him into the labour market, btw, although severla hundred thousand jobs are vacant. It must be feared that the costs for the social system in netto effect will outclass the gains. There is the attempt over here to gloss over the impact of the refugees and migrants by referring to Germany's critical demographic situation, that the population is overgaing and that the mass of young people now coming in is pour relief. Well - that remains to be seen. Scepticism trumps optimism, imo.

And this is the projection for just the end of this year when over 1 million arrivals will have been counted. The coming years with even more arrivals are not even present in the formula.

Well.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by u crank

Most immigrants, legal or otherwise do jobs that most Americans will not do. That's true in America and even way out here on the east coast of Canada. We can't get farm or fish plant workers so immigrants are brought in. Face it man, Americans are not competing for most low paying labor intensive jobs that illegals do. Are you?



You live in a land that became a country in the exact same way. People from all over the world came to America, took the land from its former owners, learned to live together, intermarried and created the United States. That's an oversimplification but that is what happened. Just because you live there now doesn't mean it wont happen again. I actually don't think it will. For every 'bad immigrant' you will get hundreds who will become good citizens. They will embrace the American dream and become your neighbors. BTW, where are your ancestors from?



Give us some proof.



For a moment there I thought you were apologizing. Guess not.

Americans would do those jobs if were paid a decent wage.That is an invalid argument used by the open borders crowd to justify the lawlessness.That is a prime example of undercutting the labor market I am not one of them, but plenty of Americans willing to do that work, but since are americans not raised in third world, they have a standard of living and are not willing to be as exploited as others and there is nothing wrong with that.Wages are kept low by the flood of illegal and immigrant labor, that is just obvious. Pay an american to pick fruit but instead of slave like wages of by the bushel, pay a decent hourly wage etc they would do it. Immigrant labor is just big business way to not have to pay people decent money for labor.Costs are already high while wages are kept artificially low, jacking up prices upon enacting a law preventing this would need to be considering price gouging and thus a crime.Pro business types will say oh it will hurt etc etc, it won't hurt big corporations who are mostly ones who do this one bit.Thing can be done to help the small businesses transition off the drug of cheap labor.Want human decency? Lets show some to our fellow citizens who have to work crummy jobs or are in need of jobs and make sure if they are willing to work, they can and dont need to be on he dole to just barely get by.

Let's say I am wrong, then I would be okay with a properly ran migrant worker program.Workers would be allowed to come here for a season to pick fruit or for 6 months at a time, then they must go back and if no criminal record etc, they may return when issued another work permit.They would be eligible for NO benefits or any kind from the government and would be required to check in weekly and wear an ankle monitor program ran by ICE and paid for by the employer, much like on probation. Breaking this "probation", the penalty would be so severe, and clearly stated to them it is so severe, they would dare no break it.This along with making penalties for employing illegals even more harsh, civil and criminal.


No sir, this is different than the past.First, this was not a sovereign nation when original settlers came here despite what the native american grievance types so(yes they have a fewlegitimate gripes but were different times and they were no angels either) they were conquered in armed conflict over period of years, it happens.

The wave of european immigrants came in a different time, they were needed mostly and quotas along with proper enforcement of laws and focus on assimilation by society as well as immigrants themselves was the norm.There were tensions, that is natural but it was not an invasion as it is now.Immigration from western europe is a lot different than from the middle east.Not because of race, but because the cultures, mainly driven by religion are so vastly different, they just dont mix, clash of civilizations.Big picture, most have rather sinister motives, it is using our tolerance and kindness to conquer europe and the US slowly but surely over time.


Most of my mother's side were here before the revolution, a lot of them went out to texas, lot of english and scots on that side.Father's side mostly irish came here in 1800's, ended up being lace curtain.Again, it was a different world, more people were needed.Now, we are overcrowded and overburdened, we dont have room, especially for illegals.Reserve that human decency for our own fellow citizens.


I have nothing to apologize for. I did not say I would personally spit on an immigrant invader, but said I understand why some would and won't fault them for it.

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by Betonov

...far left when a crisis hits.
Both scenarios spell trouble for us though.

As with the news today: unable to penetrate Hungary from Serbia the refugees are

"Police did not use force against the migrants, as they tried to keep the barriers in place. They finally gave up and the migrants started running into Croatia.
Terence Pike, with the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees in Croatia, told CNN that Croatian authorities had been prepared to handle only an influx of 500 migrants and refugees a day

headed west to Croatia-lookin' at the map- a big turn to far left indeed!

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Betonov

While does everyone think this will destroy Europe.
It's a continent. It's not like the combined power of islam will tear it up by the tectonic plate and throw it into the sun

Europeans have a tendency to go far right or far left when a crisis hits.
Both scenarios spell trouble for us though.

Because history shows the clash of civilizations.Islamic "values" culture etc is just not compatible with western society.Over time, the demographic changes will "destroy" the society.These changes start small cracks at the foundation and over time, may even take 50 years or more, but over time you have problems should never have had thanks to weak "tolerance" of mindsets from the dark ages.

This is already happening in early stages in places like France.Charlie Hebdo likely would have never happened if not for "tolerance". The beheading of british soldier in the street by a muslim would not have happened. The US has it's problem with islam as well.Dearborn, Michigan is known as "Dearbornistan" for a reason.Prime example of allowing demographics to shift so much, they run that place like it is not even a US city.

California has been ruined by this shift.Not racist here, okay with immigration from non white countries but failing to properly assimilate people and being too tolerant of those with the mentality of entitlement from other nations has lead to this.

[August]

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

I used to wash dishes, carried golf bags, swept a few warehouses/unloaded railcars and picked onions in CA for two summers myself; so it's hardly a class distinction. Been there: now it's someone else's turn!

Someone else like one of our own citizens. I don't buy the theory that those are jobs that Americans don't want to do. My first job was washing dishes too, and i've pumped gas and filled pot holes for the highway department and half a dozen other similar low paying, menial jobs when I was a youngster. I didn't do it for the experience or any such silly reason, I did it to earn money.

Illegals are taking those opportunities away from todays generation of young folks. We would never have gotten those jobs if there was an illegal that would do the work at below minimum wage.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

As with the news today: unable to penetrate Hungary from Serbia the refugees are headed west to Croatia-lookin' at the map- a big turn to far left indeed!

wow just let them in? I heard one country used water cannons and tear gas, ALL should do that.Make real consequences for the lawless, savage like behavior and it will stop.Same at the US border.Ah weakness of governments

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by Skybird

I know this from first hand witnesses, because the family of my father was one of those refugees that needed to flee. Life of the refugees in Germany was a lousy one, they stood at the very end of the social ladder, had no chance to climb it up until the early 60s, and everybody hated them for picking away from the already scarce resources.

Odd. My grandfather came from Stettin (now called Szczecin and part of Poland) and managed to settle into West Germany pretty well. He became a fire fighter in 1947 and was "verbeamted" around the same time (that means he became a federal officer with all the privileges and duties that brings). I also never heard him complain about being treated unfairly because of being from the east.
Maybe it depended on where in Germany people settled?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

Odd. My grandfather came from Stettin (now called Szczecin and part of Poland) and managed to settle into West Germany pretty well. He became a fire fighter in 1947 and was "verbeamted" around the same time (that means he became a federal officer with all the privileges and duties that brings). I also never heard him complain about being treated unfairly because of being from the east.
Maybe it depended on where in Germany people settled?

It does. My father'S people first ended up in Rostock, later had to move to Münster. Two very different places, and two very different lives. Rostock was difficult, but managable, Münster was hostile ground. Local mentality also is a factor. Living in Münster myself now, I must say that the old-grown, typical city-mentality is something that i do not like one bit myself. Very stuck-up, and haughtily, though tib has softened up a bit - its the third-biggest university in Germany by numbers, and the students changed it a bit over the years. With the farmers, it is different, Eichendorff called them "the sensible oak-trees", and their is truth in it.

Historical statistics however show that until the late 50s and early 60s, over 80% of the refugees ended up in job and on a social level at the very bottom. In parts that is because they were the ones moving in and facing a job hierarchy that may have been in rebuilding still, but nevertheless favoured local residents who simply knew the place better and had better social contacts to help their careers. For the refugees, it was unknown, all too often hostile ground.

That the government forced house and flat owners and residing families to take in refugees and let them live inside their flats, did not make it any better and raised additional hostility.

[Betonov]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

Because history shows the clash of civilizations.Islamic "values" culture etc is just not compatible with western society.Over time, the demographic changes will "destroy" the society.

History shows nothing.
For the last 1400 years Islam has dominated a desert and was either colonised by Europe or balkanised by themselves.

And now because there are some Ahmeds opening kebab shops in Europe and some Fatimas cleaning schools we're being overrun and because the father prays 5 times a day means that the rebellious teenage son will not give in to the decadence of Europe ?? I'm willing to bet €1000 that 95% of all ISIL members that ran from Europe were virgins. Some fat loosers that turned to Allah after they were turned down by women.

Don't worry about Europe, we survived WW1, WW2 and the cold war. 200 000 muslims heading to a 700 000 000 population is just a crisis to keep the politicians scandal free for a while.
The Germans migrated in bigger numbers in 1939 and they brought tanks.

And a sunite will rather kill a shiite than a christian and a shiite will rather kill a sunite than a christian.

[u crank]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

Americans would do those jobs if were paid a decent wage.

I am not one of them, but plenty of Americans willing to do that work....

I'm sorry but I don't believe that for a minute. I think you would be hard pressed to find Americans who would do that kind of work these days. You certainly would not find enough to replace the present work force. I would bet on it.

Wages are kept low by the flood of illegal and immigrant labor, that is just obvious

Wages are kept low because of the price of food in relatively cheap. Something which you as an American benefit from. Same as the fast food industry. Cheap food, cheap labor. It's simple economics and is driven by the consumer. It's also part of that free market system you guys are so proud of.

Let's say I am wrong, then I would be okay with a properly ran migrant worker program.Workers would be allowed to come here for a season to pick fruit or for 6 months at a time, then they must go back and if no criminal record etc, they may return when issued another work permit.They would be eligible for NO benefits or any kind from the government and would be required to check in weekly and wear an ankle monitor program ran by ICE and paid for by the employer, much like on probation. Breaking this "probation", the penalty would be so severe, and clearly stated to them it is so severe, they would dare no break it.This along with making penalties for employing illegals even more harsh, civil and criminal.

That is hilarious. "ankle monitor program". Are you joking? Perhaps some snappy striped uniforms as well.

First, this was not a sovereign nation when original settlers came here despite what the native american grievance types say

No it was not a sovereign nation it was many sovereign nations. Does that make it right? Do some reading. This book is a good start.

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/1491...roductInfoTabs

Immigration from western europe is a lot different than from the middle east.Not because of race, but because the cultures, mainly driven by religion are so vastly different, they just dont mix, clash of civilizations.Big picture, most have rather sinister motives, it is using our tolerance and kindness to conquer europe and the US slowly but surely over time.

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

they were conquered in armed conflict over period of years, it happens.

I have nothing to apologize for. I did not say I would personally spit on an immigrant invader, but said I understand why some would and won't fault them for it.

No, you said they deserved it.

[Buddahaid]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

California has been ruined by this shift.Not racist here, okay with immigration from non white countries but failing to properly assimilate people and being too tolerant of those with the mentality of entitlement from other nations has lead to this.

I live there and it's far from ruined but I suspect your idea of ruin is cultural diversity. And if that's the case I'd rather live in ruin than a monoculture.