Muslim uproar - (Merged)

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by STEED

News of the World, headline

Former Hitler youth member bites back.

I bet they wished they ran that one.

They did.

[monkee]

same difference as christian and their fundamentalism and judaism vs zionism.

Not every muslims follow all the guidelines in the Quran.
The same way that not all christians would follow all Bible guidelines like:

Stoning fortune tellers to death
Death sentence for cursing one own's parents
Death sentence for adultery
Kill homosexuals
Kill non believers
etc...

[Skybird]

Christianity and fundamentalism, and the church as a third faction settled somewhere between these two. Christianity, depending on the Christ and his teachings, as covered by definition in the four gosples in the new testament, probably best interpreted by the tradition of the so-called Christian mystic. Fundamentalism then being founded on - what? Old testament? Psalms? Letters? Probably. the bible is of that structure, an ancient and archaic teaching (OT), and then Christ who said he did not came to obey the old teachings, but to fulfill prophecies. Later, afetr the gospels, the ursurpation of authority by Paul, but that is another story. The formulation Jesus choosed is extremely important, for it indicates what he wants to express: fulfillment, instead of carrying on with the old tradition. that means an end to something, because it got fulfilled, something new therefore is started: Christ's teachings that new thing was. By ending the old dogma of the old God, he was a thread to the privileges of the pharisees depending on the old teachings to found their earthly power and influence, thus they tried to get rid of him.

Now, show me a comparable kind of structure in the Quran. By language analysis some suras can be attributed to Muhammads time in Mekka, and other Suras that seem to have their origin in his time in medina (none of them has been written by himself, btw, for he could neither read nor write). But you have no formal structure, no division of the Quran into several parts or sections, In fact the quran is only one complete section, without further supplementations, adn the closer to the end you come, the more ocnfused an impresison the (increasingly shorter) Suras give, until you think they are just hasty notes written down in haste on a piece of paper, as a reminder for later. Islam also claims it has been given as a complete whole, and did not emerge over a time period, it did not develope, was not adjusted, supplemented, or anything like this (different to what the churches today admit about the way the bible was formed). there is no such thing like Old testament (eye for an eye and so on), and four gospels ending that kind of thinking in the Quran. Quran compares not to the bible, it only compares to the oldest parts of the bible. The archaic, unforgiving ones. So, if in Christianity these old parts of the bible are "fundamentalistic", and Islam'S pendant in scripture only holds a comparable fundamentalistic content to this part of the bible, but has no pendant to the other ones, nothing like a reformating "four gospels", how could Islam produce anything that is not Islamic-fundamentalistic? In fact it never has, those heretics, often bright thinkers, that tried to point at the limits of the quran and wanted a free testing and questioning of Islam's scriptures - by that had left the ground of true Islam that in the overwhelming majority of cases they were imprisoned or murdered. the only way of Islam to defend itself agaisnt questions and doubts about why it is how it is - is by wiping out these questions, for it has no answers that would stand a reasonable testing.

It is sometimes said that all religions are hostile against reason and logic, for they cannot cope with these. That is not true of

a.) Buddha, who even ordered and demanded for reasonably analysis instead of believing, and logic (he is said to even have outhought greek philosophers of his time that seeked him for dispute, and they later amditted their defeat and some gave up their former philosophical tradition and studied buddhist psychology instead); and

b.) i have no problem to see reason and logic in Jesus' teachings as well, I can approach them the same way approach Buddhist psychology: one only needs to understand that the verbal symbols he uses must no longer be decyphered in the archaic way older parts of the bible had been encoded in, means: Jesus taught a new conception of what God is, and that has nothing in common with the God of the old testament, but is more metaphoric, and not to be taken literally (one of the problems with Chriszian and islamic fundamentalists as well: word-for-word interpretation, thinking in absolute literal ways: the archaic religion before Jesus' appearance has been, and all of Islam still is like that).

Islam IS fundamentalism, and exclusively so, and it is very much a "mono-cockpit", made of one piece only - you cannot strip it of some things you do not like, like christians in the following of the Christ's teachings can (and must!) reject much of what has been said in older parts of the bible. A Muslim doing so feels the illness and incompleteness of Islam's teaching, that is good for him for he is aware that he suffers a deficit, so he is yearning for more, western rights and values for example. By that he is no more muslim, but an apostate that is not willing or unable to admit that he already has rejected Islam. There is a reason why moderate "Muslims" and Muslim governments cooperating with the West and trying to implement certain western measures (legal systems for example) get targeted by "fundamentalistic Muslims" as well. For they are rightfully defined as treachery, and islam's teachings do not allow apostacy.

What I ask is why such Muslims that are no Muslim anymore, nevertheless reject to end their official following of this islamic ideology, and are offended when one is telling them that they are violating integral parts of what they claim is still their belief. I also ask why they remain so damn passive about Islamic aggression, and deficits in Islamic culture and nations, are so eager to "conquer" (in the widest sense of the word) new hunting ground, and even allow "extremists" to commit mass murder and war and terror in the name of that wonderful ideology these moderate muslims claim they still want to be a part of. "Moderate muslims" are contradicting themselves. For me, they are deeply confused and illogical people.

Just btw, most of the last year'S Muslim attackers in London, Madrid, are said to be coming from integrated, eductaed families. They had jobs, and perspectives, where considered to be ordinary, normal, kind. Nevertheless, western culture somehow did not find entrance into their Islamic thinking, obviously, or was driven out by Islamic thinking again. I wonder why this is so...

How many terror acts we have seen that were commited by christian fundamentalists in modern times? How many uproars of Christians about the DAILY massive insultings and mocking at Jews and Christians in Arab and Palestinian TV programs, calling them swine people, telling Islamic kids that they are no humans, but the offsprings of donkeys and apes??

You are chasing shadows.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by monkee

I've lived 12 years as christian in Islamic country. All muslims I knew were against fundamentalism. I don't have problems with their theology. IMO any theology can/will be abused.

That's good. It's what I want to believe. I just wish normal Muslims would speak out against the bad ones, not just anyone who says something about Islam.

Sorry, Sky. :p I guess I couldn't resist.

[TteFAboB]

To put it in one sentence, the Pope has said that it is irrational to spread faith through violence.

Every Muslim or anybody else who is criticizing and protesting against the Pope, thus, believes otherwise. They criticize a critic of the use of violence.

We urgently need to stimulate Islamic theology, they desperately need to develop logic. I've tried pinching a Sunni Imam but it's irrelevant to work with these Imams who live outside the Muslim world, they eventually crack, succumb and start speaking what you want to hear because they can only be possibly accepted for what they appear to be and not for what they really are. We need to move forward, not pretend reality does not exist, ignore the problem.

I suggest all these critics receive an invitation to a theological debate in the Vatican. Not with Ratzinger, however, he is one of the greatest and most brilliant philosopher ever and he'd crunch, chew and spit the Islamic clerics just like Muhammad was massacrated by the Jewish rabbis back in his day. Considering the precedent, such a thing might be rather counter-productive. Of course, the difference being that Muhammad attempted, today's clerics rarely even try dwelling in theology - have you noticed not even a single theological argument was sent to the Pope? Only impressions, opinions and lies.

We musn't use comfortable excuses not to investigate, to stay away from philosophy, for this is exactly the reason why Islam is what it is: 1400 years of theology being confined to closed and small groups of clerics - those who strayed too far and started to develop an ethic different to Islam were promptly "silenced", meaning Islam does not know how to defend itself nor solve the contradictory for they never had to, up to this point.

EDIT: Damn, I started writing this post before Skybird posted his last one. I'm sorry if he makes me sound repetitive, but I've only read him now.

Originally Posted by "Skybird

those heretics, often bright thinkers, that tried to point at the limits of the quran and wanted a free testing and questioning of Islam's scriptures - by that had left the ground of true Islam that in the overwhelming majority of cases they were imprisoned or murdered. the only way of Islam to defend itself agaisnt questions and doubts about why it is how it is - is by wiping out these questions, for it has no answers that would stand a reasonable testing.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by monkee

same difference as christian and their fundamentalism and judaism vs zionism.

Not every muslims follow all the guidelines in the Quran.
The same way that not all christians would follow all Bible guidelines like:

Stoning fortune tellers to death
Death sentence for cursing one own's parents
Death sentence for adultery
Kill homosexuals
Kill non believers
etc...

Well said!
Yes, the Bible, Old Testament and New, prescribes some insane (by today's standards) rules and punishments for transgressions. Most Jews and Christians pay no attention to stuff like:

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 -If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; and they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

That's a direct commandment from the Lord yet even the most Bible-as-literal-truth fundamental Christians ignore it. And my point: if any Christians did try to implement such a barbaric law, the rest of the Christians would oppose and condemn such behavior. They wouldn't be silent and then "outraged" when some non-Christian said such a law was evil.
The ME Muslims, I can understand them being "outraged" for everything, they're pretty ignorant. But the western world Muslims, they should not be so silent. As I said before, IMO, western/moderate Muslims should get their religious house in order and spare us their indignation.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

That's a direct commandment from the Lord yet even the most Bible-as-literal-truth fundamental Christians ignore it. And my point: if any Christians did try to implement such a barbaric law, the rest of the Christians would oppose and condemn such behavior. They wouldn't be silent and then "outraged" when some non-Christian said such a law was evil.
The ME Muslims, I can understand them being "outraged" for everything, they're pretty ignorant. But the western world Muslims, they should not be so silent. As I said before, IMO, western/moderate Muslims should get their religious house in order and spare us their indignation.

Well said.

[Immacolata]

Perhaps that is all the islamic religion needs. A sound theological overhaul to drag it into the 21st century, screaming and kicking. Awful lot of screaming and kickin' going on already. Just isn't well on the dragging side of things.

It would help if some of the oh-so-liberal-egalitarian european countries would create a modern theological faculty for islamic studies. Not just the dissection of ancient text but actual education of imams and theological study. Might even develop some new doctrines out of it. Problem is perhaps that today the imams are educated in countries that are not keen on that kind of debate.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Immacolata

Perhaps that is all the islamic religion needs. A sound theological overhaul to drag it into the 21st century, screaming and kicking. Awful lot of screaming and kickin' going on already. Just isn't well on the dragging side of things.

It would help if some of the oh-so-liberal-egalitarian european countries would create a modern theological faculty for islamic studies. Not just the dissection of ancient text but actual education of imams and theological study. Might even develop some new doctrines out of it. Problem is perhaps that today the imams are educated in countries that are not keen on that kind of debate.

We have such academies in Germany. As far as I know, all of them are rated as extremely hostile towards the constitution, our Bundesverfassungsschutz reports year for year. they are under constant obervations, but demands of the BVS to shut them down for the BVS has things no longer under control, are ignored by politicians. Most famous one is the Saudi-founded king Fahd-academy in Bonn. BVS lists it as a centre of terror-breeding.

See my longer remarks here that adress that problem, too:
http://people.freenet.de/Skybird/DialogueWithIslam.rtf

You cannot squeeze out of Islamic ideology what it does not include, in any way or another. That's why educating imams in Europe will not work (it is the old idea of Europe'S left and Eurocrats to create an Euro-Islam by that). But that is feeding the beast with your own hand, and literally so. What would the church's religion be withoiut Jesus? No new testament, only the old one. No christianity therefore, just that old hack-'n-slay-stories of the OT. It would effectviely be where Islam has been and still is today thorughout all the last 13 centuries. Problem is - Islam does not hold those potentials like other religions. It stagnated, it had no one coming after Muhammad. no parallelfigure to jesus. Only the old dogma, and stagnation. No reformation. no enlightenment. no dispute, only the riigid sticking to the reamrks of Muhammad, and that is all. Squeeze it as you want, you will not get much more out of it, no matter how many European academies you found.As far as I do have red information about several figures in Islamic history that had shown up with more liberal thiughts, and questions to Islam, all of these fiugures were not depending on the quran, but had stepped beyond it. They had left it behind in a way. And most payed with their freedom and/or their lifes with that. None was able to found a tradition that ever developed any signifoicant influence in the islamic world and changed the going of Islamic history.

That we in Germany is under pressure by Turkey to accept Turkish teachers and Imams in Germany, and Turkish language for educating, and that we do not state-control this process and shall not allow it being done by state-controlled Imams indicates that the reality is shifting towards exactly the opposite direction of what you wished for. I bet it is the same in all other European countries. Just look wherew Britain is standing today: a representiave survey showed just weeks ago that one third of Britiosh muslims would like to see sharia implemented, and excuse violance and terror acts if it helps to push islam in Britan and the West. the quote is even higher amongst the young ones. The British are fighting a lost battle, they were tolerant and reasonable for too long. One could also put it into other words: they were too arrogant for too lo0ng, assuming that their civilized superiority would be enough to tame Islam and domesticate it. Now the beast has escaped it's box, and grows stronger and stronger. Good luck, Britain. Luck will not help you, but such a phrase is considered to be well-meaning and polite when parting.

[Immacolata]

Ah, perhaps the rub is that your imam school is founded by Saudi people. They are amongst the most pig-headed and orthodox. I think that was a mistake. No the education should be part of the established european tradition of the university. That is how our vicars and priests have been educated for near a millennium now. Not involve dogmatists from the middle east. It was possible to squeeze jesus into judaism to found christianity, afterall.

But perhaps you are right. Where I live there isn't much leeway for muslims right now, and there is talk about evicting more or less all of the imams.

[Skybird]

It's cooking on.

http://www.welt.de/data/2006/09/15/1037631.html

2nd chairman of Turkish governmental party compared the pope to Hitler and Mussolini, saying he would be remembered by history as an equally evil figure. - Who is it now needing to excuse himself?

And Chameni from Iran said it is to be regretted that Christianity now is governed by such a shameless person that does not understand Islam (of course, we all misunderstand poor well-meaning islam, Mr. Chameni, we are just stupid, TV-drunken westerners, you know) and "unfortunately has offended it." (how new. How original. Next!) "Muslim have reacted to it and will keep on reacting." - Well, you infantile worthless full-time-sucker - unfortunately your stupid mindset and that of all the other infantile useless full-time-suckers in your muslim world are offending my intelligence and reason day in day out, week after week months after months, year after year. I have reacted to it, and will keep on reacting to it: not by stabbing your medieval-dressed imams on the streets, like you do with christian priests, and not by sending chrisztian militias to massacrate Muslim villagers, like you do, or telling lies aboiut history, like you do, but by brandmarking you as the aggressive, sly and backwardly primitive ape-men that you are.

What has the pope done? He illustrated that religion shall never be an excuse for violance, and shall not be propagated and spread by the use of violance, and that the use of violance to acchieve this necessarily is a violation of God's wishes himself. Judging by their modest and reasonable reactions, Muslims all over the world seem to have a problem with agreeing to that.

From Egypt their is a demand to the Muslim world, to threaten to brake all relations with the Vatican if the Pope does not apologize in person, and in public. - Well, all I can say: couldn't get much better than that! We should set up a petition encouraging to brake all ties. what, of course, they will never do - the conquest of the West is more important.

[mr chris]

Originally Posted by Skybird

It's cooking on.

http://www.welt.de/data/2006/09/15/1037631.html

2nd chairman of Turkish governmental party compared the pope to Hitler and Mussolini, saying he would be remembered by history as an equally evil figure. - Who is it now needing to excuse himself?

And Chameni from Iran said it is to be regretted that Christianity now is governed by such a shameless person that does not understand Islam (of course, we all misunderstand poor well-meaning islam, Mr. Chameni, we are just stupid, TV-drunken westerners, you know) and "unfortunately has offended it." (how new. How original. Next!) "Muslim have reacted to it and will keep on reacting." - Well, you infantile worthless full-time-sucker - unfortunately your stupid mindset and that of all the other infantile useless full-time-suckers in your muslim world are offending my intelligence and reason day in day out, week after week months after months, year after year. I have reacted to it, and will keep on reacting to it: not by stabbing your medieval-dressed imams on the streets, like you do with christian priests, and not by sending chrisztian militias to massacrate Muslim villagers, like you do, or telling lies aboiut history, like you do, but by brandmarking you as the aggressive, sly and backwardly primitive ape-men that you are.

What has the pope done? He illustrated that religion shall never be an excuse for violance, and shall not be propagated and spread by the use of violance, and that the use of violance to acchieve this necessarily is a violation of God's wishes himself. Judging by their modest and reasonable reactions, Muslims all over the world seem to have a problem with agreeing to that.

From Egypt their is a demand to the Muslim world, to threaten to brake all relations with the Vatican if the Pope does not apologize in person, and in public. - Well, all I can say: couldn't get much better than that! We should set up a petition encouraging to brake all ties. what, of course, they will never do - the conquest of the West is more important.

Spot on Skybird Could not have summed it up better myself.
Why should the pope say sorry, They have never said sorry for anything ever.
They just keep on moning thinking the world owes them a favor

[HunterICX]

an apology?

I,m still waiting for an apalogy made by all the muslims that called us INFIDELS

I,m still waiting for an apalogy made by all the muslims that called us INFIDELS

And therein lies the rub. Muslims can say and do anything wihtout protest. Yet if a cartoon is drawn or a politician stands against Islam or the Ponitif speaks out against evil, the Muslim world is outraged. The more I see of their act the less likely I am to give an inch or look at their 'religion' in a politically correct manner.
Also the lack of outrage from what have been come to be termed as 'moderate Muslims' does not endear me to anyone who claims to be of that 'religion'.

It is time for all of us to wake up and see what is happening. These people want our lives.

[snowsub]

the pope wasn't the only one
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/viewstor...20060911b.html

and the typical reply

The head of the government's own moderate Muslim advisory committee, Ameer Ali, said Howard risked inflaming tensions seen in rioting between white youths and Arab-Australians in Sydney last December.

But the prime minister refused to apologise and repeated his comments in an article written for Sydney's Daily Telegraph tabloid on Saturday.

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stori...228337/1/.html

"Fully integrating means accepting Australian values, it means learning as rapidly as you can the English language if you don't already speak it," Howard said in a radio interview.

"People who come from societies where women are treated in an inferior fashion have got to learn very quickly that that is not the case in Australia."

and backed up by his deputy
http://theaustralian.news.com.au/sto...6-1702,00.html

and he also called for muslins to recognise Israels right to exist

In comments to mark the anniversary of the 11 September 2001 attacks in the US, Mr Howard said: "No decent genuine Muslim would support terrorism."
He also said Muslims must fully accept that Israel had a right to exist. Islamic leaders in Australia have reacted angrily to the comments, saying Mr Howard should not single out Muslims for criticism.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1699598/posts

Mr Howard was criticised two weeks ago for suggesting that a small minority of Muslim immigrants did not do enough to integrate into Australian society.
In an interview with The Australian newspaper on Monday, he insisted: "We are not attacking Muslims generally."
"But you have to call terrorism for what it is - it is a movement that invokes in a totally blasphemous and illegitimate way the sanction of Islam to justify what it does."
He added that "on occasions they [moderate Muslims] should come out and be more critical of terrorism".
"We shouldn't pussyfoot around," he said.
In a later interview with Sky TV, Howard also said that Muslims should accept the right of Israel to exist. "If we could reach a settlement whereby there was a total acceptance of Israel's right to exist ... and also the establishment of a Palestinian state which was fully recognised, that would remove one of the arguments used by the fanatics," he said.

We shouldn't pussyfoot around :rotfl:
wonder if he'll get a jihad put on his head :hmm: