We just do not have the convoys correct! What can we do?

[mike_espo]

Originally Posted by gouldjg

Wulfmann

CB has already dropped you a massive hint to get what you want,

You have two ways of reducing pin points

1. Set min ranges on your passives and actives so DD get blind spots on last approach

or

2. Adjust the turn rates of the DD = DD can no longer turn on a sixpence and subsequently have to drop their loads at random points near the players resulting in a more realsistic supression experiences if that is really what you want. If one class has wide turn rate and another has normal then you get mixtures. Each ship can be seperate.

Be careful though, when playing with this second option, I ended up pinned for 11 game hours and ended up out of commpressed air. Although it would indicate a method to get the ideal and close to history DC experiences, I simply do not want to be pinned under for 11+hours so will leave that for the guys who do.

Balance and much testing needs to be done but there is room for that method to get what you want within reason. It is just how realistic do you really want to go??

I tried an experiment on Gibralta mission and after 7 hours managed to look like I was getting out and free, the DD stopped searching and headed back to their patrol points, it was a shame i was in the way cos they picked me up again and I spent another 4 hours before I got bored and tired from concentrating too hard .

Wow! Never had an experience remotely like that. It seems even with RuB 1.45, and hollywood's and NYGM damage mods installed, and with my editing of the SIM.CFG file so noise levels of escorts are 0.37, I still never have more than a 1-2 hour encounter with an escort. I will either escape before that time or get destroyed. Just go silent drop bold and most of the time, the stupid AI just circles at 1-2 knots about 1 or 2 km behind. I am long gone.... It is a bloddy shame that the development of this sim did not include a ASDIC search pattern for escorts....really a crime.

How do you change turning circle of escorts???? that may help.

[gouldjg]

Mike

Timetravellers tools will help. Rudder drag is the key. Very early WIP from a conversation between CB and GW whom pointed me in the direction of possible ways. CB is onto something, thats for sure. Its just one of those things that is hard to communicate so I think he is secretly working.

Basically a wider turn radius means a longer supression and also gets rid of some of the pin points therefore can start to use stock sonar arcs again and slightly good ubers to compensate.

Another side effect is that DD has to think its route to player a lot more and a lot of different angled attacks.

There is a number of ways to take advantage of this. GW will probably look into it a lot further.

Problem to balance is what happens if only one DD attacks and he has wider turn. This then could make him look worse than before etc etc so a variety of various tweaks is needed to comensate certain things.

I was originally thinking about no crew repair options as implemented by NYGM which I think will blow some players socks off and have to take my hat of to Der Teddy for seeing the potential and implementing a wild idea into a reality.

I wanted time to enjoy new longer repairing functions so wanted to get rid of same old boring attack routine of the DD which means DC drops every 4 minutes or so and then they are always on subs tail leaving little time to really enjoy the longer repairs.

Just needs testing fully to see potential flaws and workarounds so not ready or in fact a mod yet. Just a direction some should consider.

Current game = every DD turns the same circle = gets predictable no matter what sensor set up is established.

Hopeful game = Different sized attack circles simulate a more organised attack from Hunt groups and no more DD group huddles ets etc.

Lot of maths etc etc so fingers crossed for the future.

[Wulfmann]

G, excuse my ignorance but an explanation on how to do either of what you suggest would be very nice.

I am curious as to what solution you would want so you do not have to go through long DCing that would allow a reasonable experience.
I admit the 14 hours last week under and then another 11 was not exiting but I agree it is because the DD could not lose me if he tried.
I would love to reduce the sweep and increase the blind spots so only 3 enemies could keep me under and 2 or less would have to give up. But, what does that.
I look at the tools and do not see that option to change.
I have hex edited in other games but this looks very different to me.

I do not see a turning radius anywhere in the files. Where are they?

When one does not know how to do it saying do it is not quite enough. Hints don’t work, instructions required!

Maybe it is right in front of me and I should trip on it but I do not see it!

Wulfmann

[CB..]

i think the problem with increasing the numbers of escorts for a convoy in the RND file is that we don't have control over where the escorts appear--all we get is the option to position them as escorts--the game seems to decide where to put them--

in a single mission you can place the escorts in a usable pattern--give the convoy a wide screen a little further out than normal and a close screen in the normal stock postions i have been using a test mission with 10 escorts gaurding 13 merchants and it never looks messy or gets out of hand

this would involve having a quick way to work out the lat long co-ordinates for the non stock escort positions--
say type in the lat long and heading of the lead ship (which is given inthe RND file) and get the lat long position for a escort placed about 5-8 thousand metres either side of that location- then we could add these extra escorts by hand editing giving them exact locations as they do seem to keep to them as they go along--mind you i'm not sure if the RND will accept this approach and it's a heck of a big job---even on the stock RND which has 58 major named convoys to edit

if you have timetravellor editing tools you can open the ai_sensors.dat and edit all the sensors thru there--giving the sensors larger blind spots at the rear can help avoid the uber long encounters as will increasing the minimum range so you enter their blind spot as they begin their high speed DC run-

giving you a short window to make some more violent maneuvering going to flank etc
if there are a gaggle of Dd's around you you need the blind spot more than against a solo attack--

there is a quick way to try things out without silent running if you find that a bit too much of a cloaking device but it does rather throw things right to the other extreme

if you go into the comands_en.cfg (cfg folder)

and find this entry

;[Cmd153]
;Name=Rig_for_silent_running
;Ctxt=1
;MnID=0x3F0F0006
;Str=1003

you can comment it out as i have done and it disables all the rig for silent running shortcuts--

this is rather like givng the DD's the key to your front door tho in game--i was shocked at how uber they became-- needs a more subtle answer
but an experiment

G's the guy for the turning cirle stuff---

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by gouldjg

I ended up pinned for 11 game hours and ended up out of commpressed air.

I've been under the compressed air is broken. Unless i blow ballast in emergency surface, the compressed air guage never budges.

[gouldjg]

Using Timetravellers tool open the uboat sim files and go to propulsion options.

Bottom 2 line = drag rudder and another drag thing just underneath it. I have uninstalled my game so cannot give you exact name but you will see it.

You will note that all ships are pretty much the same setting for drag.

So I thinks to myself, what would happen if I make it so DD turn wider circles?. Vonhelsing gives me a initial start number but not much difference in game so I went crazy and tried 0.007 for drag rudder and 0.01 for the one underneath.

I then put stock sensors back on default everything as far as sonar arcs, min ranges and hydrophones are concerned.

I then added a xtra 1000 mtre to each sensor and try the Gibraltar mission cos usually the DD all get into a group huddle and do not space out which makes evasion quite easy considering the number of DD.

Now what was noted was that the DD were taking wider turns and this therefore increases their search range making it quite probable to keep getting caught by active again especially when more than one ship attacks.

They all piled in as normal but now were doing much wider sweeps so it was extremely difficult trying to get into blind spots and reach a safe distance but at one point I did and did escape, only to be picked up again cos I went the wrong direction.

Now admittingly this 0.007 was probably way too much for earlier war DD as they were unable to get fast line ups for DC runs so all were pretty of the mar and spitting in the wrong places. They had no hedgehogs etc just rack at back. Although it was probably quite realistic in the way the DC should be no good at that time anyway, gamewise it was too boring and so was the long attack.

If I were to try and get a varied attack and time to enjoy the new longer sub repairs, I would consider looking into the turn radius of the DD/DE and making it fit for the convoys.

For me personally, it would be a mixture e.g. one ship class was a wider turn but better sensors and another was normal turn radius but normal or slightly nerfed sensors.

It does not make DD more aggressive etc but it does make them look totally different than the normal boring uber turning stay within 800 mtr circle that current stock game has.

I see potential in it and will be going down this road in the future.

In fact, here is a list of what I HOPE may work but am not claiming this as a super solution as it may all go pear shaped.

1. We have 7 types of actives and 7 types of passives in the game to cover the war for various ships.

2. I only look at this game as early war and late war so am not really fussed about ships having individual sensors and 1941 being different than 1942. I am sure many players just think; damn I am under attack and that’s it.

So

If I use 1 active for early war and 1 for late =2 types of sensors

Then 1 passive for early war and 1 for late = 2 types of sensors

= 4 sensors used and 10 possible spare sensors to configure to what I want them to do.

I then decide on which ships to give wider turning radius and which to just vary slightly so I get different attack patterns. I am not going to be saying to myself "oh look that DD is turning wide", I am just going for the escape.

On the wider ships, I give better sensors so they act as the sub shadows or commander of the ASW action whom makes sure the sub does not have a easy way out.

On the narrow turning, ships I give other set of sensors but nerf the min ranges of sensors. These are the killers

That’s my plan but there are a 1001 ways to view how to be attacked.

Some people just want better sensors on the ships so they get challenged, some want historic situation simulated i.e. 5 hour attacks and some just want a 10 min bash and crash.

I cannot say look at this, it will be great cos it may not be for you or anyone else.

All I can say is that turn radius can drastically change the DD experience but it is too early to tell what side effects need to be also considered.

Suggest you try tweaking the rudder drag etc and have a look for yourself in the game and report back here on your thoughts.

CB has the ideas on how to make DD's more aggressive, I just want to make them more varied and less predictable.

I also want a nice timing between DC attacks so I can use the NYGM sub with longer repairs to its full extent.

At the moment, because DD turn so fast and such small circles, player has little time to make long repairs and get the fun.

Hope this helped more than it confused.

[gouldjg]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I've been under the compressed air is broken. Unless i blow ballast in emergency surface, the compressed air guage never budges.

I had a destroyed propeller after a early dc and cos I was going so slow I seemed to be sinking all the time so had to keep blowing ballast now and again to get me back to a decent depth.

I did not want to end the game early cos I was seeing if i could infact escape and that it was not infact a condition where it was immpossible to escape from.

Trust me, I did not sit on pc for 11 hours and most of my moves were in X8 speed. I tell you, it was bloody tireing trying to find the gaps where I could accellerate without the rest hearing me. A little too much inho.

The normal air and battery was about 2 third full as was pretty much on silent most of the time. It was the default 90 sonar arc picking me back up again each time.

[Wulfmann]

CB, I don't find the escort location a big problem. I have added many escorts and if anything the way SH3 does it works better with more than less.
It is rather predictable.
The hierarchy is DD, DE, Frigate, Corvette and armed trawler.
Higher rated of those will lead and starboard convoy flank gets next, then rear and port convoy flank gets the lowest on the totem pole of the social order.
The only thing I feel it could improve on is the lead DD. This is always one in the middle where as in real life there would be 3 sweeping. Also there would be sweepers farther ahead and of course a hunter group behind the convoy half way to the next convoy following.
The order is one in front 2 each side and 2 to the rear. if you go beyond 7.
The flanks first add one even further out if more than 7 escorts making a side approach much more tricky as you must cut across two forward looking escorts. That is realistic, IMO.
I want to have 12-20 escorts but reduce their effectiveness to represent the real threat not the uber threat. SH3 uses 2-6 escorts at most so makes them each a group in effect and that just does not play to history.

“If you have timetravellor editing tools you can open the ai_sensors.dat and edit all the sensors thru there--giving the sensors larger blind spots at the rear can help avoid the uber long encounters as will increasing the minimum range so you enter their blind spot as they begin their high speed DC run-“

Ok, I have looked at this and all I see is a jumbled hex file. Which tool do I use and what am I looking for specifically? Sorry, It might be I just overlooked it but I really have missed this as to what to do.

Wulfmann

[CB..]

Originally Posted by Wulfmann

The hierarchy is DD, DE, Frigate, Corvette and armed trawler.
Higher rated of those will lead and starboard convoy flank gets next, then rear and port convoy flank gets the lowest on the totem pole of the social order.

i didn't know that that's good news

here's a link to time travellors site for the tools to edit the sensors etc

http://www.delraydepot.com/tt/sh3sdk.htm

use G's rudder dragtrick aswell to reduce turning circle reduce lostcontact time in the sim.cfg significantly as this will lower the chances of you getting attacked by 6 DD's at once etc--try 2 minutes or less with a large numbers of escort -

see how you go on with TT's tolls they should be reasonably straight forward

[Ducimus]

In one of the NYGM threads, it was stated that the AI can only have one sonar active at a time. If i interppreted what i read correctly, that means an escort will be either in active mode, or passive mode, but not both at the same time. So if hes not listening, he *should* be pinging. The problem is, they rarely do. But this would explain some of the dumb behavior we see, wouldn't it?

So an idea hit me, and it might be feasible, it's hinged on One important thing.

Escorts communitcating to each other. (IE if one gets a fix on your position, the other escort knows where you are based on the other escorts findings). Now if this is what happends, then you could concievably reconfigure escorts to work in teams in specalized rolls. For example, make DD's use only passive sonar. Make DE's use only active sonar. Pair them together. I've yet to follow up on this idea, but assuming it works, it would require an extensive rework of every convoy in the RND layer to make sure escorts are properly paired with each other.

[Wulfmann]

I have used TT]s tools since they came out but I do not see how to use the one for the library stuff. It calls for txt files so if I change the dat to txt it then says it could not open it because it is not {*txt} well, you can't rename them like that as it then won't list them as assessable for the tool. I know I am just not seeing something.
I have opened them with my hex editor but I only find 2 two digit numbers in the whole file both are 20. Is that pair the ones that can be played with? They were in the sonar reference (This is the AI_Sensor file I am referring to)

I do wonder since this seems to be a critical aspect of us getting to the bottom of more reality why someone does not make a set of these all varied from where they are to way to easy (not release them) and have some test them so we can figure where the medium is. It muse also be considered that raising or lowering the crew efficiency might alter the whole thing again.

Wulfmann

[Wulfmann]

I am looking at the sim file for a DE and frankly I do not see what values relate to the rudder. It shows the rudder, I just don't get the values. It is simply a different type of hex values than I am use to so do not get it!
I had a US DE chasing my XXI and it followed me through turns like I was towing it with a pole. I was doing flank 17knts.

I believe the later types that have or get K-Guns and hedge hogs could do for a 20 percent reduction in turn radius. I still think there should be some serious multiple testing of the sensor arcs. It should be that one has a hard time staying with you if you stay silent and turn away. 2 should be difficult and 3 should be able to stay with you.
Because SH3 usually has most leave after 2 hours, rarely will there be 2 after 2 hours that means if you can stay on top of things for 2 hours you can slip away. I agree the 14 hour thing, while real, is not game sense viable. But, IMO.

Wulfmann

[CB..]

Originally Posted by Wulfmann

I have used TT]s tools since they came out but I do not see how to use the one for the library stuff. It calls for txt files so if I change the dat to txt it then says it could not open it because it is not {*txt} well, you can't rename them like that as it then won't list them as assessable for the tool. I know I am just not seeing something.
I have opened them with my hex editor but I only find 2 two digit numbers in the whole file both are 20. Is that pair the ones that can be played with? They were in the sonar reference (This is the AI_Sensor file I am referring to)

I do wonder since this seems to be a critical aspect of us getting to the bottom of more reality why someone does not make a set of these all varied from where they are to way to easy (not release them) and have some test them so we can figure where the medium is. It muse also be considered that raising or lowering the crew efficiency might alter the whole thing again.

Wulfmann

if your using the TTanalyser
you load a set of rules
then you click test
-the contents apear in the right hand window
you select the section you wish to edit by clicking on it--
it appears bottom left
edit that's it

if you get this far then remember to move the back up copy the program makes from the library folder--'cos the game seems to prefer to read this one -rather than your modded one --remove the Copy_of file and it will run your modded file

TT's mini tweaker is self explanatory--and does the same job

[Wulfmann]

Don't hate me because I am ignorant!!!:rotfl:

Load a set of rules?????

I see that and stare at it in wonderment knowing there is a simple explanation realizing I am one step short of simple!!

From the read me;
"Start SH3 File Analyzer, oad a rul from the \Rules folder, and and look through
the file's values. Rules define the structure of each file, the placement of the
file's values, and can be written or modified at any time by you."

The problem I am having is there are no rules in the rule folder. There might be a duh answer to this but I seem to also be one step short of "duh" :hmm:

Answering this may very well dictate how I will be spending a lot of time testing and editing for the near future and hopefully have some results that improve relaism, whatever that is!

I do appraciate the tutoring.

Wulfmann

[CB..]

ahh sorry Wulfman yes the rules are a seperate download (should be shown on the same page as the analyser download--read the blurb and it'll show you where the rules are (im sure they are onthe same page)

its the same with the mini tweaker program

you need the tweak files which tells the program how to read the game files--

have a good read of the page the downloads are on first then download the tweaks and rule depending on which program you want to use--then extract the rules into the prgrams rules/tweaks folder

then you can run the program --click load rules/tweaks

select the one you want (AI_Sensors etc)

with the analazer you then click "test rules"
and select the entry from the right hand panel by clicking on it
you can then edit it in the bottom left windows selcting update value when your done--
with the tweaker
you have a drop down list top left which
displays options in the main window which can then be edited on the right selecting up date value when done--

i hope that helps a bit --but download the rules/tweaks and install them into the rules/tweaks folders in the program
rules in the analzer/rules folder
tweaks in the tweaker/tweaks folder

keep trying you'll get the jist of it--