NYGM aircraft damage -- big improvement

[Brentano]

Teddy Bar,

Another question while I have your attention: Since this is now a tonnage game, does it matter if I go to the patrol grid assigned to me? There's no longer a benefit to going, correct?


PATROL RESULT -- 4th patrol

Took heavy damage from Liberator aircraft; Grid BF 84; 3 Sailors killed, 1 Flak Warrant Officer killed, 1 Watch Officer killed; Liberator killed all 5 with tail-gun on second attack run; Returning to base.

[Der Teddy Bar]

Originally Posted by mapuc

Where can I find this mod?

Have been looking here

http://server3.realsimulation.com/u-boot/SH3Mods/

Markus

The thread for NYGM Tonnage War Mod is here - http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=49428

The thread includes the download links and details. It also has 16+ pages on whats and how etc...

These are the not curent NYGM threads with good info...
Not Your Grand Mothers Ship Damage Mod Beta 0.1.36
http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopi...highlight=nygm

NYGM Aircraft Damage Mod Beta Ver 0.06
http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopi...highlight=nygm

NYGM Aircraft Damage Mod addresses Laser Guided AA
http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopi...highlight=nygm

Not Your Grand Mothers Crew Management Mod 1.1
http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopi...highlight=nygm

Not Your Grand Mothers RUB Campaign Mod Ver 1.1
http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopi...highlight=nygm

[Der Teddy Bar]

Originally Posted by Brentano

*cough*

Teddy Bar --- Just so you know I set the range to medium & fire at incomming aircraft only on those 3 patrols.

Ammunition was a problem. On the last patrol I was out of light flak and nearly out of heavy flak when I decided my boat couldn't take anymore damage (and my crew was threatening mutiny ).

I'm actually wondering if it is now TOO DIFFICULT to shoot down aircraft? Perhaps the current set-up needs some tweeking? I'll play around some more and let you know what I think. I know you mention the figure of 95%--is that a number you came up with from testing or is that a rough estimate/guess?

U-Boats lost to aircraft in 1942 = 38, 1943 = 141, 1944 = 78, 1945 = 20

In WWII only 120 aircraft were shot down for the entire war and most of those were from 1942 onwards.

While I am not saying that the NYGM Aircraft Damage Mod cannot be improved, the basis for your opinion is not fact. I have no issues with polite question/s, as was yours and thus this reply.

NYGM is a realism mod, as such, counter arguements should always be based on facts. If you have facts, I am always willing to listen. If it is based upon, 'I feel' or 'I think' and so on, with no disrespect I do not have the time and they will not be taken into account as we seek to improve the NYGM mod/s.

That is not to say we do not want your feedback from in-game experiences, as from these we can better improve the various NYGM mod/s based upon the facts that we know.

Why this stabce? It is simply that there are so many people who have had thier history from Hollywood or who take some actual fact/s and apply it everywhere.

[Der Teddy Bar]

Originally Posted by Brentano

Teddy Bar,

Another question while I have your attention: Since this is now a tonnage game, does it matter if I go to the patrol grid assigned to me? There's no longer a benefit to going, correct?

Yes it is Tonnage Based, so arriving at you grid gives no bonus.

[Der Teddy Bar]

Originally Posted by Cdre Gibs

I'm now wondering what the combined effect would be with your lil tweak an mine! :hmm:

To sum it up, the AA/DG would now take longer to adjust and also not be able to stay adjusted correctly as easily. Damn I'd be surprised if you could hit anything after that

Thx Ted.

Cdre Gibs,
It will be interesting to see what the combined result was when applying your proposed changes in addition of the NYGM change. I feel that your value will come to the fore as the weather gets worse.

I am currently hard at it on other time sensitive areas, but I will get this looked at as soon as possible. I will then send you my results.

[Brentano]

While I am not saying that the NYGM Aircraft Damage Mod cannot be improved, the basis for your opinion is not fact. I have no issues with polite question/s, as was yours and thus this reply.

NYGM is a realism mod, as such, counter arguements should always be based on facts. If you have facts, I am always willing to listen. If it is based upon, 'I feel' or 'I think' and so on, with no disrespect I do not have the time and they will not be taken into account as we seek to improve the NYGM mod/s.

That is not to say we do not want your feedback from in-game experiences, as from these we can better improve the various NYGM mod/s based upon the facts that we know.

~ Teddy Bar,

Okay. Fair enough. Just so you know, I'm into history, read a number of battle-of-the-Atlantic-type-books, and I was a professional game-tester at Nintendo for three years. I tell you this so you know I'm not some punk kid trying to tell you how to mod. I too am only seeking realism. I'm not saying for sure that the aircraft issue needs some tweeking -- just consider me your game tester -- I work for free. I'll test and give you my data. You use your best judgment as to the results. But mods often need testing and tweeking ... and so I asked. Anyway ...

Here's my preliminary data:

Career 1--TypeVIIC; #3 conning tower; one C/38 flakvierling, two C/38:

Patrol 1 - lost 4 men, heavily damaged, returned to base

Patrol 2 - heavily damaged, returned to base

Patrol 3 - lost 8 men, heavily damaged, returned to base

Patrol 4 - lost 5 men, heavily damaged, returned to base

Patrol 5 - sunk by Liberator, all hands lost (44)

Career 2--TypeVIIC; #4 conning tower; three C/38 flakvierling (U-Flak!); At this point, I decided bringing down aircraft was my only purpose in life:

Patrol 1 - lost 14 men, heavily damaged, returned to base

Patrol 2 - lost 19 men, heavily damaged, returned to base

Patrol 4 - lost 17 men, heavily damaged, returned to base

Patrol 5 - lost 25 men, heavily damaged, returned to base

Patrol 6 - lost 30 men, heavily damaged, returned to base ... barely

Patrol 7 - lost 12 men defending against a Sunderland; heavily damaged, sunk by Liberator while returning to base, all hands lost (total of 44)


In total, over 12 patrols within the Bay of Biscay, my crew shot down ZERO aircraft while losing 210 men and 2 Type VIIC's


These were my settings:

I never manned the flak guns myself ... I only let the crew AI fire the guns. I set the flak guns to: fire at will, either close or medium range, any aircraft. As for shotting at incoming aircraft, I did this for the first career. On the second career I experimented. I seemed to see more success (more smoke!) when I allowed my flak crew to shoot at both in-coming and out-going aircraft. Sometimes the crew would have to reload while the aircraft was attacking and hence would lose an opportunity. By allowing them to shoot at the aircraft as they left the scene of the crime, I ended up doing more damage. Of course, this may only be true with the flakvierling. I also seemed to do better by limiting their fire to close range.

I also keep my speed at Ahead Standard and do some zig-zagging to avoid as much damage as I can ... that's my job as commander!

Let me know what you make of this.

~ Brentano

[Der Teddy Bar]

Brentano,
Thanks for the clarification, appreciated.

Excellent feedback!

What I would need to make the amount of wounded/dead crew relevant is details of each battle. For all I know the 19 men dead could have occurred over 5 attacks lasting 3 hours or, it could have been done in 3 minutes by an over zealous Swordfish bi-plane.

U-Flak Histories….

U-211 never had any aircraft successes not last any men. Was twice successfully attacked by aircraft, 20/02/43 by a Liberator in the Bay of Biscay, returned to base and sunk at night by a Wellington.

U-256 never last a man and had successes before being converted to a U-flak.
2 Sep, 1942
(British Whitley aircraft, Squadron 77/H)

11 Mar, 1944
(Canadian Wellington aircraft, Squadron 407/H)
The aircraft seems to have crashed on its own during preparations for the attack run.

19 Mar, 1944
(British Liberator aircraft, Squadron 224/F)
The aircraft smashed into the sea 500m away from the boat and exploded.

7 Jun, 1944
(British Liberator aircraft, Squadron 224/M)

U-271 as U-flak again sailed from Brest on 02/10/43. On 21/10/43, a single Avenger from USS Core attacked and badly damaged the U-271 with 1 crewman killed, U-271 dived to escape. Some say there were 2 Avengers.

Sunk 28 Jan, 1944 west of Limerick, in position 53.15N, 15.52W, by depth charges from a US Liberator aircraft (VB-103/E)

U-441 as U-flak on 24 May, 1943 U-Flak 1 encountered British aircraft in map-square BF 4971. A few hours later there was a fight with a British Sunderland which U-Flak 1 shot down. The British pilot dropped his bombs just before his aircraft crashed into the sea, some of which fell near U-Flak 1. (It is said that the pilot had received the British Victoria Cross for sinking six U-boats.) U-Flak 1 returned to Brest due to damages.

U-441 as U-flak again sailed from Brest on 8/07/43. On 12/07/43 she was attacked by Beaufighters 'A', 'B' and 'V' of Sq 248 and after a few minutes ended up badly damaged with heavy casualties (10 men dead, 13 wounded) in spite of the initial heavy AA fire. U-441 returned on 13/07/43.

Sunk on 8 June, 1944 in the English Channel in approximate position 48.27N, 05.47W by depth charges from a British Liberator aircraft (Sqdn 224/G).


U-621 while serving as a Flak boat on 13 Jan U-621 was attacked by a Liberator (RAF Sqdn 59/A) and suffered 1 man killed and 6 wounded. Matrosengefreiter Heinz Thomas was mortally wounded and later buried at sea. The commander decided to abort the patrol. U-621 took ten days to limp back to Brest.

U-953 before conversion to a U-Flak (Oct 43) was attacked by a liberator on the 09/07/43 and one crewman killed and 2 wounded.

[Brentano]

What I would need to make the amount of wounded/dead crew relevant is details of each battle. For all I know the 19 men dead could have occurred over 5 attacks lasting 3 hours or, it could have been done in 3 minutes by an over zealous Swordfish bi-plane.

Got it. I see you're also a big fan of uboat.net!

All of the above patrols took place from mid to late 1943. Unless otherwise noted, the loses occured during a single encounter with a single aircraft. For the most part, I didn't keep track of the aircraft types. But I estimate that 25% were Sunderlands and 75% were Liberators. The battles generally lasted from 5 - 20 minutes. If I wasn't sunk, the aircraft would force me under within 3 - 10 attack runs. Lastly, I never once had a wounded man. They were all killed outright.

Hope this helps. I'll keep testing.

[Der Teddy Bar]

Originally Posted by Brentano

Got it. I see you're also a big fan of uboat.net!

Yes they are great and 99% of the time agree with the books I have.

Originally Posted by Brentano

All of the above patrols took place from mid to late 1943. Unless otherwise noted, the loses occured during a single encounter with a single aircraft. For the most part, I didn't keep track of the aircraft types. But I estimate that 25% were Sunderlands and 75% were Liberators. The battles generally lasted from 5 - 20 minutes. If I wasn't sunk, the aircraft would force me under within 3 - 10 attack runs. Lastly, I never once had a wounded man. They were all killed outright.

Hope this helps. I'll keep testing.

The crew getting wounded/killed is a backward system. All crew share the HP damage equally. Within the range, so one might get wounded quicker than another. This could also lead to skewed figures for crew being wounded/killed. As you can deduce, many bullets are required to wound/kill crew.

[Der Teddy Bar]

Cdre Gibs,
You have yet, in my opinion, correctly state that NYGM did not take others work as their own and that we did address the AA gun Laser Guided Aiming System.

Inferring that someone has 'taken' someone else’s work and passed it off as their own, and to pursue that so publicly and with out a clue about what you were talking about is reprehensible. Not even the courtesy of a PM to clarify the matter, or to download the NYGM Aircraft Damage mod to check

After so publicly ‘calling me out’ over the NYGM claims to have fixed the AA gun Laser Guided Aiming System and to have done so without YOUR assistance you have yet to have the courtesy to make any sort of apology privately or publicly.

Regards.

[zzsteven]

Originally Posted by Cdre Gibs

Ahhh, interesting. You made a very valid point. I must admit I'm as blind as a bat, I didnt see that difference!


Thx Ted.

Hmmmm Maybe you would prefer him to cower at your feet?

zz

Originally Posted by Der Teddy Bar

Cdre Gibs,
You have yet, ect ect ect

Originally Posted by Cdre Gibs

Well there ya go then, I as you know dont use the NYGMod, but after that thread where we bashed out the AA issue, I was under the impression that you had included the fix. But since you didnt

Originally Posted by Cdre Gibs

Ahhh, interesting. You made a very valid point. I must admit I'm as blind as a bat, I didnt see that difference!

I'm now wondering what the combined effect would be with your lil tweak an mine!

Thats as good as it gets - what do you want - Blood ?

I corrected myself but still maintain that I did indeed solve the issue first. Its not the same way you did and I never have stated that your method didn't/dont work. Nor do I detract from your efforst nor say that you used any bits of mine, as per the quote's above. I have always said your work has been an outstanding achievement and I still say that. I also still acknowlege that the NYGMod did achieve the desired result (that being AC are harder to bring down). So I feel no further need to say anything over this issue. Since to me there is no issue.

Originally Posted by zzsteven

Hmmmm Maybe you would prefer him to cower at your feet?

zz

And your point being ?

Is Teds and my discussion directed at you. Do you have any valid input. Are you a conerned party in these's discussions...NO.

So any merit you have to contribute amounts to zero.