Tragic Hajj stampede

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Etienne

Jihad watch! Now that's an unbiased news source!

Prove your claim, please.

A Saudi professor exhorts his people to hate christians? Wow, first page new. Have you ever seen an American TV evangelist? They've said worst. Routinely.

Prove your claim, please.

[Type XXIII]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

Prove your claim, please.

I hope Etienne and TAL will forgive me for proving, or at least argue for, Etienne's claim.

From Jihad Watch's webpage:

WHY JIHAD WATCH?

Because the West is facing a concerted effort by Islamic jihadists, the motives and goals of whom are largely ignored by the Western media, to destroy the West and bring it forcibly into the Islamic world -- and to commit violence to that end even while their overall goal remains out of reach. That effort goes under the general rubric of jihad.

In this paragraph, Jihad Watch tells its readers quite openly that their articles are based a claim that "the West is facing a concerted effort by Islamic jihadists (...)." All their articles are written from this point of view, and have as purpose to prove this claim. They only describe events that further their claim, and are therefore biased.

That being said, Jihad Watch is far from the only biased news source.

Using a biased webpage as a news source isn't necessarily wrong, and it is important that these events also are described to the public. But when one uses a biased news source, (such as Jihad Watch,) one has to be aware of its bias, and preferably also find other sources that describe the events from another point of view.


And now over to something completely different: the topic.

Yes, it is surely a tragedy, caused by the unpredictable nature of human beings, and especially the unpredictable nature of crowds.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Type XXIII

I hope Etienne and TAL will forgive me for proving, or at least argue for, Etienne's claim.

From Jihad Watch's webpage:

In this paragraph, Jihad Watch tells its readers quite openly that their articles are based a claim that "the West is facing a concerted effort by Islamic jihadists (...)."

So you are claiming this is false? An untruth?

Note the dictionary definition for 'Bias":

bi·as ( P ) Pronunciation Key (bs)
n.

A preference or an inclination, especially one that inhibits impartial judgment.

An unfair act or policy stemming from prejudice.

Please point out the "impartial judgements" and the "unfairness" of the articles posted.

Just imagine had they been called "NaziWatch.com".

All their articles are written from this point of view, and have as purpose to prove this claim. They only describe events that further their claim, and are therefore biased.

This itself is absolutely untrue. They have numerous times quoted news articles, politicians, authors and religious personalities with contrary positions and have challenged those positions based on referential quotes and facts from extrenal sources, most often from within Islam itself.

I do indeed see bias here but not in JW's posted articles. Look a little closer to home.

Using a biased webpage as a news source isn't necessarily wrong, and it is important that these events also are described to the public. But when one uses a biased news source, (such as Jihad Watch,) one has to be aware of its bias, and preferably also find other sources that describe the events from another point of view.

Again, most of their posts are based on external articles. When news items turn out to be false, JW immediately notes the fact. It has, however, been a rare event.

[Hitman]

"Someone who denies Allah, worships Christ, son of Mary, and claims that God is one third of a trinity - do you like these things he says and does? Don’t you hate the faith of such a polytheist who says God is one third of a trinity, or who worships Christ, son of Mary?

Nonesense. According to Quran -unless I'm wrong- Christians also believe in the same God, the only difference being Muslims believe Christ was a prophet, jews he was just one man more, and Christians he was the Mesiah. So the difference between the three cults is essentially believing in one or another prophet, not in God or the basics about God (Almighty, creator of everything, etc.)

Crowd: Israel is the enemy of Allah.

Nonesense. Considering Quran, Israel was the first nation to recognize the only God, Jehova-Allah-God-whatever. Their main difference with muslims is not recognizing Christ as a prophet or Muhammad as THE prophet.

It should be noted that using that style of reasoning, Budhists, Sinthoists Indhis and alike are way more an enemy of Allah than Jews or Christians....

Again the same idiotic manipulation of the masses

[Wim Libaers]

Originally Posted by Hitman

It should be noted that using that style of reasoning, Budhists, Sinthoists Indhis and alike are way more an enemy of Allah than Jews or Christians....

Well, in the areas where those religions meet Islam, there also are conflicts with radical muslims.

[Type XXIII]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

So you are claiming this is false? An untruth?

Are you claiming it is true?

I was not claiming that in my post. I tried to remain objective and make an arguement for that JW is biased, not to attack their POV.

Please point out the "impartial judgements" and the "unfairness" of the articles posted.

It is not so much the articles that are biased as it is the selection of articles. Granted, I have only reviewed it casually, but it still appears to me that all their articles furthers their claims and views. You are apparently a frequent reader and might be able to point out examples that disprove my perception, but I think they're a minority.

Just imagine had they been called "NaziWatch.com".

I would still call it biased and read the articles with a critical eye.

This itself is absolutely untrue. They have numerous times quoted news articles, politicians, authors and religious personalities with contrary positions and have challenged those positions based on referential quotes and facts from extrenal sources, most often from within Islam itself.

So they disprove opposing views. Isn't this a method of proving their own views?

I do indeed see bias here but not in JW's posted articles. Look a little closer to home.

Again, most of their posts are based on external articles. When news items turn out to be false, JW immediately notes the fact. It has, however, been a rare event.

What I am saying is that Jihad Watch has an agenda, and this agenda is to prove the "concerted effort to destroy the West." The articles presented are argueing for this view.

There is nothing wrong about trying to prove your views, but it is biased, IMHO.

[Abraham]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

Can you define "relative" as a percentage of the over-1-billion Muslims worldwide?

We were not talking in this thread about Muslim radicals - we all agree that there are too many - but about the Hadj, more specific about the tragic stampede, and went off topic with the second posting on this thread towards a bunch of radicals who shouted disgusting anti-American and anti-Israel slogans.
I read Konovalov's post, watched the link he gave ( http://memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD106706 ), and saw what seemed a relative smal group of dull Iranian(?) pilgrims.

Originally Posted by Konovalov

To me it looks like a typical Iranian Govt PR stunt with the "death to America" and "death to Israel" ranting. The 'huge swelling crowd' of a few hunded or so Iranian pilgrims seemed half asleep or perhaps they are getting tired of being fed the repetitive Tehran Government line. Near 3 million pilgrims went on Hajj this year and here we have what amounts to less than 0.01% at an Iranian political rally. This is NOT what Hajj is about.

And I agree.
That seems to me a fair estimate of that specific situation. If Konovalov's guess of 0.01% is correct I think we are certainly talking about a relatively small group.
[I hope you don't make the mistake to think that I don't realise that a relatively small group of extremists can be extremely dangerous. But that's not the issue here. I try to point out that we should judge on the facts: we have to recognise that this was a relatively small group; the Muslim community has to make sure that the world understands that these people are in no way representing the general opinion of Islam or condoned in their extremism by their religion.]

[TteFAboB]

Originally Posted by Type XXIII

What I am saying is that Jihad Watch has an agenda, and this agenda is to prove the "concerted effort to destroy the West." The articles presented are argueing for this view.

There is nothing wrong about trying to prove your views, but it is biased, IMHO.

And you are biased in your agenda to prove "Jihad Watch is biased" and has an agenda. The arguments presented are articulating for this view. :rotfl:

There is nothing wrong about trying to prove your views, but you are biased, IMHO.

[Iceman]

Originally Posted by Abraham

I try to point out that we should judge on the facts: we have to recognise that this was a relatively small group; the Muslim community to make sure that the world understands that these people are in no way representing the general opinion of Islam or condoned in their extremism by their religion.

IMHO I think you know that that is a load of horse turds....I think ALL of Islam continually re-enforces the "Death To America/Isreal" mentality and I see it every day from every Muslim community in Every country that has them....Where are all these "Peace" loving Muslims?....Simple Question...Where are they?...Please point me to the links which show the Muslim "Red Cross" or whatever in action....show me the Muslim Organizations that swooped into action when the world saw the Tsuanimi kill thousands....Please show me the International Efforts made by these people....and Then..I may again re-think my current opinion of them...but for now they "seem" like rabid wild animals to me...and should be treated as such I guess.

[Abraham]

Originally Posted by Iceman

IMHO I think you know that that is a load of horse turds....I think ALL of Islam continually re-enforces the "Death To America/Isreal" mentality and I see it every day from every Muslim community in Every country that has them...

No Iceman, my opinion is not a load of horse turds.
I'm the last to defend Muslim extremism, antisemitism or anti Americanism, but you are wrong if you say "ALL of Islam is ..." etc.
Of the more than 1 Billion Muslims there are certainly millions of fanatics. 10 Million (1%)? 100 Million (10%)? Too much for sure.
But there are also hundreds of millions of Muslims, especially outside the Middle East, in countries like Indonesia and India (the second largest - and integrated - Muslim community in the world!) who are less interested in international politics and just want to make a living. So is the majority of Muslims in my country. You don't seen them on the news, because they are acting normal. You see the extremists on the news, because they are news.

Originally Posted by Iceman

Please point me to the links which show the Muslim "Red Cross" or whatever in action....show me the Muslim Organizations that swooped into action when the world saw the Tsuanimi kill thousands....Please show me the International Efforts made by these people....and Then..I may again re-think my current opinion of them...but for now they "seem" like rabid wild animals to me...and should be treated as such I guess.

Here's the link: http://www.ifrc.org/ (the Red Cross and Red Crescent are an integrated organisation).
And if you say that the local Muslim organisations operate far from efficient and that Muslims amoungst themself often show too little compassion, I fully agree.
But you better re-think if it is fair to condem 80% or 90% of all Muslims and call them "rabid wild animals..." - and advise to treat them as such(!) - because a minority of perhaps 20% or 10% are fanatical extremists.
It also doesn't fit with the Christian concept of compassion.
I am critical enough about Muslim extremism and certain aspects of the Islam that in my opinion don't fit into modern society, but arguments should be fair and opinions don't gain strenght when they are based on generalisations...

[Konovalov]

Originally Posted by Iceman

I think ALL of Islam continually re-enforces the "Death To America/Isreal" mentality and I see it every day from every Muslim community in Every country that has them....Where are all these "Peace" loving Muslims?....Simple Question...Where are they?...Please point me to the links which show the Muslim "Red Cross" or whatever in action....show me the Muslim Organizations that swooped into action when the world saw the Tsuanimi kill thousands....Please show me the International Efforts made by these people....and Then..I may again re-think my current opinion of them...but for now they "seem" like rabid wild animals to me...and should be treated as such I guess.

So I, Caspofungin, and others here (yes there are other Muslims on this site but choose not to reveal themselves), in your view "seem like rabid wild animals...and should be treated as such." This is the kind of dangerous dehumanizing language that eventually leads to one group of human beings slaughtering another be it the Nazi atrocities against the Jews, or the genocide in Rwanda committed in most part by Hutus against Tutsis and so on. I urge you not to tread down such a slippery slope but rather to look harder for the wider truth.

In just over the last year my wife and I have donated over £400 (approx USD $700) to three charities those being Muslim Aid, Islamic Relief, and also the International Red Cross. In addition to these money donations we have also donated winter clothing and shoes thru a local community initiative that was taken by family relatives directly to one of the effected areas of the Asian eathrquake. One of my uncles who is a medical surgeon in Manchester took a months leave from work to fly to Kashmir Pakistan to volunteer his medical services for the earthquake relief effort which in Pakistan are sadly lacking.

Another example was at the end of Ramadhan last year during the Eid celebrations which is similar to Christmas in that all the family gets together and have a big meal and the kids get presents. Normally Muslims spend money on gifts and on nice looking outfits for the occassion but this time because of the horrors of the tsunami and the earthquake, as a family we decided not to spend money on such items but rather to donate it to charity.

Iceman, are these examples that I have mentioned above the actions of rabid wild animals? Should I and my family be treated like dogs? I am not angry at what I hear here so much as I am deeply saddened. But I am an optimist and there is always hope.

[retired1212]

Originally Posted by Iceman

Please point me to the links which show the Muslim "Red Cross" or whatever in action....show me the Muslim Organizations that swooped into action when the world saw the Tsuanimi kill thousands....Please show me the International Efforts made by these people....and Then..I may again re-think my current opinion of them...but for now they "seem" like rabid wild animals to me...and should be treated as such I guess.

Data is sorted according to the names, not according to the amount.

Iran
USD 627,000

Kuwait
USD 100M

Qatar
USD 25M

Saudi Arabia
USD 30M

Turkey
TRY 28.9M

United Arab Emirates
USD 20M

I will dig some more information later and the small contributions as well (that doesn't involve only money), if you'd like. I am at job right now.

Edit:
Got some more info. Copy and Pasting

Government of Pakistan has announced a PKR 10 million (USD 0.2 million) relief package for the earthquake victims of Sri Lanka. This consists of goods such as tents, medicines, drinking water and food items.
Military Pakistan plans to send 500 military personnel in medical and engineering teams to Indonesia and Sri Lanka.
Aeroplanes2 C-130 aeroplanes with relief goods and 250 doctors and engineers left forIndonesia and Sri Lanka each (http://pakistantimes.net/2005/01/04/top.htm). Six more C-130 will fly to Indonesia in a week to help in the relief work. and also two two Seaking helicopters onboard PNS (Pakistan Navy Ship) Moawin are in srilanka to provide logistics support.
Navy ships Ships Khyber and Mua'awan are being sent to Sri Lanka. On board, these ships have three helicopters, a marine Expeditionary Force, doctors, and paramedics. Besides, relief goods - medicines, medical equipment, food supplies, tents, blankets- are being sent in huge quantities. Pakistan Navy ships, Tariq and Nasr, on a good will visit to the Maldives, saved 367 foreign tourists, representing 17 nationalities conducted aerial surveys to judge the extent of damage, distributed food and medicines, and provided medical assistance. Pakistan Navy Task Force arrived at Colombo port to provide humanitarian assistance and relief goods to the government of Sri Lanka. An ISPR (Navy) statement here on Tuesday said that the commander of the Task Force is Commodore Ehsan Saeed and it comprises Pakistan Navy ship Moawin, a Logistic support ship having two Seaking helicopters onboard and PNS Khaibar, a guided missile destroyer carrying one Aloutte helicopter.On arrival, officials from Pakistan Mission at Colombo and local Navy officials of Sri Lanka received the ships.


Oman is sending relief goods worth USD 3m for the victims of tsunami in Sri Lanka, Maldives and Indonesia.Ali Ibrahim Shanoon Al-Raisi, executive director of Oman Charitable Organization (OCC), the country's Red Crescent, said four consignments carrying 300 tonnes of goods each have already been flown to Sri Lanka and Maldives in the past three days

The Tunisian goverment sent 2 C-130s to Indonesia full of relief supplies.

A Syrian aeroplane loaded with 40 tonnes of medical and food aid took off from Damascus Airport to Indonesia Thursday . The Syrian government newspaper Al-Thawra quoted Syria's Health Minister, Maher al-Hussami, as saying that the load included 20 tonnes of medicine, food and drinking water, as well as 880 blankets

Islamic Relief Worldwide has increased its emergency appeal to USD 5m. This includes an initial USD 270,650 for relief and rehabilitation intervention in the region, and USD 27,000 to meet the immediate needs of victims in Sri Lanka


Also there were a few cricket matches, and Pakistan and Bengladesh has participated to collect the money.

Cricket shirts Winning bid (in AUD)
Zaheer Khan 5,100.00
Yousuf Youhana 6,100.00
Abdul Razzaq 5,517.50

Honestly saying, I felt disgusted when I saw such prejudiced comments. I also don't like such comments against any religion/race/nationality. We shall give a proof that we have atleast some education.

[Konovalov]

@ Iceman,

This is in your own backyard. Found this from Fox News here: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,181279,00.html

Muslim Holiday Leads to Increased Meat Donations
Wednesday, January 11, 2006

ALBANY, N.Y — In the prepackaged, boxed and canned world of American food banks, fresh meat is a luxury. But what to do when two and a half tons come at once?

Take it, Amy Gabala says happily. Her Washington, D.C.-area Manna Food Center is used to generous holiday giving. But the annual Islamic feast of sacrifice, Eid al-Adha, on Tuesday brought a gift she's never seen: "such an extraordinary amount of meat."

Increasingly, American food banks are being presented with chunks of freshly slaughtered goat, lamb and cow as Muslims bring a key religious obligation to a wider audience.

Eid, which comes at the end of the pilgrimage to Mecca, celebrates the storied test of Ibrahim, or Abraham, who was willing to sacrifice his own son for God. He was allowed to sacrifice a sheep instead.

Each Muslim family is encouraged to sacrifice an animal and split it in three — one-third for the needy, one-third for friends and family and one-third for themselves.

At Eid, Muslims often contract with local farms and have the animals killed at local halal, or religiously acceptable, slaughterhouses.

Ahmed Kobeisy, the director of the Islamic Center of the Capital District in Albany, N.Y., says the center this year is encouraging members to donate meat to non-Muslims and food banks as well. "The poor includes all the poor," Kobeisy says.

Zahid Bukhari with the Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding at Georgetown University says a growing number of donations in the U.S. go not just to needy Muslims, but to the community at large. The reason, American Muslims say, is simple.

"Especially after 9-11, we need to be a more obvious part of society," says Irma Hafeez, the general secretary for the Montgomery County Muslim Council in Maryland. The group first gave 700 pounds of meat to the Manna Food Center last year. This week, it hoped to donate 5,000 pounds.

The California-based Islamic Relief USA is introducing a pilot project this Eid in Detroit, where meat will be distributed to the needy community at large, said media manager Arif Shaikh.

The Queens-based Islamic Circle of New York planned to donate hundreds of pounds of meat to local food banks.

In the Los Angeles area, the Shura Council of Southern California, a collection of about 70 local mosques, expected to donate "tens of thousands of pounds" of meat to local food banks, said executive director Shakeel Syed.

When the practice first started, the council encountered some unusual reactions. Syed says some wanted to know if the meat was being dumped because it was rotten.

"There was just a lack of knowledge at the beginning," Syed said. "I think canned food is the norm."

In past years, donor enthusiasm also ran so high among recent Muslim immigrants that the council sent out advisories telling people not to simply hand out bags of fresh meat to needy strangers.

"Muslims are beginning to recognize if you give a pound of meat to someone on the street, there's not much they can do with it," Syed says.

The advisories have stopped, he says. But "there are always some extra-excited people."

[Konovalov]

And here a story of an American Christian organisation helping victims of the Asian earthquake and the local muslims appreciative response:

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?B...&PAG=461&rfi=9

The Muslims in a remote region of Pakistan celebrated Christmas this year, in honor of some visitors from the West who had brought them the gift of shelter.

and

The Pakistanis were very appreciative of the volunteers' efforts and very hospitable. While the Christian group wasn't there expressly to convert the Muslims, their demeanors impressed at least a few of the locals.
The Muslims had held a party in honor of their Christian benefactors on Christmas Eve, performing dances and songs into the night. On Christmas Day, as the workers were finishing up a house, another quake, or aftershock, hit.

[Iceman]

Talk is cheap...Deeds are what is what will reap a harvest.
I guess time will tell I don't mean to come off as a hater but I prefer the cold truth and I am not blind.The Muslim faith to me, from what it puts forth,"Seems" like Violence...

Abraham...Christ came not to send peace but a sword.To set as man at varaince with his brother....The truth of the world is Cold and Hard.If I offend I apoligize but I will call it like I see it.Of course not every Muslim is a killer but it is the faith and the fruits of it is what "I" see.The Islamic faith again "To me" "Seems" like a rabid dog....I am not anyones judge but I have to judge right and wrong and the Muslim faith is Wrong..."To Me".

A tree in known by it's fruit...else make the tree good and the fruit or it is gonna get tossed in the fire.

Obviously the same is thought about Christianity by Muslims too so there we are there.This is the state of the world right here don't be so dismayed by this.

At least were still typing/communicating and not killing.If I didn't care would I even post on this subject...ya think i don't know how hard it is to talk about...Thank you for the posts and links.