Russia - Page 2

Catfish · 11-25-05, 07:13 AM

Hello Kapitain,
i did not mean to offend you, sorry. Things in Russia are certainly difficult, and you probably need a strong hand to keep control and hopefully lead the nation into better times. However several names on a list to choose from are not alone what makes a democracy, the chosen leaders should not act as dictators then, prohibiting free speech and free enterprise.

There is still this "saga" that Hitler was elected - well, this is not quite the truth. Members of the german parliament were hindered to enter certain votes, they were frightened personally or beaten, or they were simply blackmailed in threatening their families by the SA. Anyone who voted against the party was written down and persecuted. I somehow would not call the final election "democratic".

There is no way in comparing Germany back then and Russia today, and Putin certainly deserves a better evaluation. But hindering firms and business to act freely and arresting their leaders because they grew to a danger for Putin, or so he thought, is not democratic. There stilll is no free press. If someone gets really big enough threatening to be elected, he will get serious problems. And i do not see that Putin does enough against the Russian Mafia, instead he pursues "normal" business leaders and replaces them with his men.
But i do not really know enough of what Putin really has in mind or plans - does anyone?

Greetings,
Catfish

Kapitan · 11-25-05, 08:48 AM

hey catfish i think you miss understood my post lol you didnt offend me sorry if you took it that way but i can see what your saying i mean putin has been in power now for 5 years and is a very good president not many people want rid of him.

since i started studying the russian navy way back in 1996/7 i found that the predasesor to putin almost made the armed forces bankrupt he didnt have a clue.

the in 2000 put reformed the millatery and struck off the crap that is not needed such as alot of older Delta class submarines and in 4 years he has dropped the SSBN force from 26 to 16 and plans to reform it further and minimise it to 12 or 14 SSBN's which is adaquate.

putin also introduced sponsorship where big russian comapnys sponsor naval vessels one such vessel TK20 severstyle is sponsord by the company severstyle.

this saves money and allowes for other projects to be established if it wasnt for putins sponsoring idea the borey lada and sevdvinsk wouldnt exist right now they would be about 10 years away.

CCIP · 11-25-05, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kapitain

there is free elections ive seen a polling card and it doesnt just list putins name a dozen times it lists everything including communist leaders which might i add are the third most powerful party in the kremlin

The communists may seem like a strong party, but one look at their post-USSR history and the demographics of their voters are very telling of the fact that they're not going anywhere. Zyuganov had a pretty good chance in 1996; but Yeltsin played a fine card with nice-sounding promises of support to General Lebyed', and the rest is history (as is Lebyed', whose death I still refuse to accept as an "aviation accident")

And so what do we see? The communists have been steadily losing votes, and there's an easy explanation for why: consider the demographic of their voters. Overwhelmingly, these are pensioners longing for the 'good old times'.

What do we know about Putin and pensioners? I know quite a lot, unfortunately, and I'm yet to be given any explanation for the current government policy towards them - besides the idea that they're being conviniently killed off as their already-ridiculous pensions and free services are being cut.

What are these other parties and candidates? Name one 'democratic' party in Russia that has anything but a tiny minority in the government. The fact is, there were some relatively progressive western-style democratic parties in the 90's - like the Yabloko - but they are, for all purposes, politically dead right now. All you have remaining is a constantly-changing block of parties (that gives the appearance of "democratic choice") which consists of the same exact core that held power since the early 90's, the slowly-dying communists, and what else... the weird LDPR with their hilarious leader, which, when it comes to key decisions, votes on the government line?

And, Kapitain, as much as I respect your dedication to subs - please, spare me. Judging a regime based on its supposedly-improved management of the navy and its' manufacturing of new subs while a huge number of people can't make ends meet after having been thrice robbed by this government is, quite frankly, idiotic.

joea · 11-26-05, 05:42 AM

Good post CCIP.

Kapitan · 11-26-05, 07:27 AM

yes your right communists have lost alot of votes infact they were the second most powerfulest party in russia till around 1995 but since then a steady decline its estimated that they will dwindle for a long time yet

Kapitan · 11-26-05, 07:37 AM

i wont hide the fact the pension scheme is well pathetic or in a good deal of cases non existant.

avaerage pension is $77 per two weeks avaerage wage an officer on submarines brings home is $600 per month (top ranking brass captains and above)

the cost of living isnt as high as it is in britain america or switserland but i do think more could be done for the pensioners the ones who did put thier lives on the line and did almost make the sacrafice as they say "some gave thier tommorrow for your today"

depending on where you live city town or village the cost of living varies, the towns and citys being more expencive than the villages, i went to a mc donalds while in nizhney novgorad $2 for a double cheese burger thats not bad but the same item in moscow is around $4 or $5.

russia is trying to re structure its fleet to save money it will take years but it will in the end save billions they are trying to get rid of the old expencive subs and ships and bring in the new and also make the fleet smaller because russia no longer realy see's america as a threat.

you may say what does he know but if you look every one does it britain is getting rid of thier costly type 42's and replacing them with more capible cheaper units same with america france ect ect...

there could be more done but there could be more done everywhere what about the eathiopians or zimbabweans or other poor countrys i think we have enough millatery and i think every rich country should donate a weeks income to all the poor countrys then we truely might be equal.

CCIP · 11-26-05, 01:03 PM

$600 a month... ouch. Although it's far better than a teacher

As far as the fleet - I really don't think Putin is on the wrong track here; but there's really a big problem with distribution of money to all government-supported professions in general and that's what worries me.

Russia is NOT poor. There's very encouraging economic indicators from there in the last few years - Putin has at least not dropped the ball when the oil prices started going up, and Russia has made a lot of money from this. Industrial production seems to have increased, and from the looks of it - all is good.

But the problem is that the benefits of this are going to, at best, 10% of the population; much of the money that's made goes abroad in various schemes. Meanwhile 90% of the populace is worse off.

And, of course, shockingly enough - despite the apparent economic uplift - it was only a few months ago that Putin had approved measures to cut pensions and benefits. That's what my tooth is, since I do have old relatives in Russia who've been seriously affected by this.

Sorry if I seem a bit bitter about this whole Russia thing. It is all pretty personal to me - if it weren't for the circumstances that the current government is perpetuating, I would still be there.

Happy Times · 11-27-05, 11:27 AM

Would be nice to hear what scenarios have the people that voted "other".

Takeda Shingen · 11-27-05, 11:45 AM

I voted other, and say:

Russia will continue to do what it has done since the formation of Muscovy. That is, consistantly lag behind the nations of the west and spend itself into the poorhouse in an attempt to catch up. There have always been slight increases in societal living, followed by great downturns, but this has been the general trend for the past 700 years, and Russian society and politics show no signs of deviating from this.

CCIP · 11-27-05, 12:17 PM

Very good possibility, as much as I'd like to disagree - it is true. Russia, if anything, really has been following a very established historical pattern. The only thing is that the up-and-down turns lately have been more extreme - although it's true of the rest of the world, too.

One may wonder if the volatility of this up-and-down cycle might actually ruin Russia - if not on this downturn, then perhaps on the next? :hmm:

Type941 · 11-27-05, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

Hello,
If you observe what happens to free business leaders this is nothing more than dictatorship

Dude, you are not talking about the 'i made my billions on privatization, hihi" Hodarkowsky? I feel sorry for people holding this naive point of view, those so easily brainwashed by the 'free' western media. You guys should wise up about the economy in US and Europe, and about the deep sh*t it can end up in in 10 years time, and worry about that instead of 'geopolitical situation and freedom of press and democracy' in Russia.

Do you have anyone living in Moscow for example whom you can ask about these horrors? I have, and they laughed their arse off about the 'freedom of press', 'nationalism' and all that. Putin has done one thing for Russia than not many have - he gave it stability, which is quite a lot in post Yeltsin era where everything was robbed and stolen. But hey, it was democracy, and it was all free for all. Product - Hodarkovsky and Abramovich. Now in their direction, a lot would just spit.

Americans loved Yeltsin. He was easy to manipulate, gave off all little wealth russia had, did everything friend Bill told him to do, and was a cookoo. With Putin it's much harder, since most who spoken to him can't really say he's an idiot, a dicator, or anything. In fact, from american's themselves, when asked about Putin, all said they were quite impressed by him.

TteFAboB · 11-27-05, 03:45 PM

Spit on them!

C'mon, if enough of us spit on them we can drown them to death! Who needs a "fair trial" or "freedom of press", those are corrupt western lies anyway! Let's just spit on the bastards!

CCIP · 11-27-05, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TteFAboB

Who needs a "fair trial" or "freedom of press"

I hate to sound like such a skeptic, but given the choice between "fair trial"/"freedom of the press" and putting food on the table, most people would choose the latter.

Never having lived in a society where people are faced with that sort of choice, I think people are too-easily dismissive of what it entails. I am not surprised Putin was chosen over the other alternatives. I don't like him one bit. I don't support his policies. But he is, essentially, the only stable option.

And don't get me started on Hodarkovsky or these types. I think "spit" on them, for me, is a little too mild a word.
Difference between Hodarkovsky and other 90's-privatization-kings?

Others shared the loot with the right people. He didn't.

Type941 is, unfortunately, right. Western-style democracy, at least in the form that it appeared in the 90's, has already failed in Russia.

Much like another purely Western idea called communism failed - and at about the same rate.

TteFAboB · 11-27-05, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCIP

I hate to sound like such a skeptic, but given the choice between "fair trial"/"freedom of the press" and putting food on the table, most people would choose the latter.

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

So in the name of feeding the people's hunger for "Justice" we allow Putin to mildly skip a legal step or two in the name of stability. The purely Western idea called communism lives in the spirit of Beria.

Takeda Shingen · 11-27-05, 05:36 PM

CCIP is correct. Historically, Russia's greatest problems have occured when its leaders have attempted to imitate the manner of running things in the west. Politics in Russia are unlike that of any other nation. The same is said for its social problems. Ultimately, Russia will have to find Russian methods to solve Russian problems, whatever they may be.

That being said, I doubt I will live to see it. It seems that the west believes that it knows what is best for Russia. Worse, many of Russia's politicians and leaders also believe this.

View Poll Results: What is the future of Russia?
Russia is going to become a European democracy.	15	33.33%
Russia is going to become a nationalistic and expansionist.	13	28.89%
Russia is going to brake to pieces, with possible civil war.	5	11.11%
Other?	12	26.67%
Voters: 45. You may not vote on this poll

11-25-05, 08:48 AM	#17
Kapitan Sub Test Pilot Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK + Canada Posts: 7,130 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 7	hey catfish i think you miss understood my post lol you didnt offend me sorry if you took it that way but i can see what your saying i mean putin has been in power now for 5 years and is a very good president not many people want rid of him. since i started studying the russian navy way back in 1996/7 i found that the predasesor to putin almost made the armed forces bankrupt he didnt have a clue. the in 2000 put reformed the millatery and struck off the crap that is not needed such as alot of older Delta class submarines and in 4 years he has dropped the SSBN force from 26 to 16 and plans to reform it further and minimise it to 12 or 14 SSBN's which is adaquate. putin also introduced sponsorship where big russian comapnys sponsor naval vessels one such vessel TK20 severstyle is sponsord by the company severstyle. this saves money and allowes for other projects to be established if it wasnt for putins sponsoring idea the borey lada and sevdvinsk wouldnt exist right now they would be about 10 years away. __________________ DONT FORGET if you like a post to nominate it by using the blue diamond Find out about Museum Ships here: https://www.museumships.us/ Flickr for all my pictures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131313936@N03/ Navy general board articles: https://www.navygeneralboard.com/author/aegis/

11-26-05, 07:27 AM	#20
Kapitan Sub Test Pilot Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK + Canada Posts: 7,130 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 7	yes your right communists have lost alot of votes infact they were the second most powerfulest party in russia till around 1995 but since then a steady decline its estimated that they will dwindle for a long time yet __________________ DONT FORGET if you like a post to nominate it by using the blue diamond Find out about Museum Ships here: https://www.museumships.us/ Flickr for all my pictures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131313936@N03/ Navy general board articles: https://www.navygeneralboard.com/author/aegis/

11-26-05, 07:37 AM	#21
Kapitan Sub Test Pilot Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK + Canada Posts: 7,130 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 7	i wont hide the fact the pension scheme is well pathetic or in a good deal of cases non existant. avaerage pension is $77 per two weeks avaerage wage an officer on submarines brings home is $600 per month (top ranking brass captains and above) the cost of living isnt as high as it is in britain america or switserland but i do think more could be done for the pensioners the ones who did put thier lives on the line and did almost make the sacrafice as they say "some gave thier tommorrow for your today" depending on where you live city town or village the cost of living varies, the towns and citys being more expencive than the villages, i went to a mc donalds while in nizhney novgorad $2 for a double cheese burger thats not bad but the same item in moscow is around $4 or $5. russia is trying to re structure its fleet to save money it will take years but it will in the end save billions they are trying to get rid of the old expencive subs and ships and bring in the new and also make the fleet smaller because russia no longer realy see's america as a threat. you may say what does he know but if you look every one does it britain is getting rid of thier costly type 42's and replacing them with more capible cheaper units same with america france ect ect... there could be more done but there could be more done everywhere what about the eathiopians or zimbabweans or other poor countrys i think we have enough millatery and i think every rich country should donate a weeks income to all the poor countrys then we truely might be equal. __________________ DONT FORGET if you like a post to nominate it by using the blue diamond Find out about Museum Ships here: https://www.museumships.us/ Flickr for all my pictures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131313936@N03/ Navy general board articles: https://www.navygeneralboard.com/author/aegis/

11-26-05, 01:03 PM	#22
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	$600 a month... ouch. Although it's far better than a teacher As far as the fleet - I really don't think Putin is on the wrong track here; but there's really a big problem with distribution of money to all government-supported professions in general and that's what worries me. Russia is NOT poor. There's very encouraging economic indicators from there in the last few years - Putin has at least not dropped the ball when the oil prices started going up, and Russia has made a lot of money from this. Industrial production seems to have increased, and from the looks of it - all is good. But the problem is that the benefits of this are going to, at best, 10% of the population; much of the money that's made goes abroad in various schemes. Meanwhile 90% of the populace is worse off. And, of course, shockingly enough - despite the apparent economic uplift - it was only a few months ago that Putin had approved measures to cut pensions and benefits. That's what my tooth is, since I do have old relatives in Russia who've been seriously affected by this. Sorry if I seem a bit bitter about this whole Russia thing. It is all pretty personal to me - if it weren't for the circumstances that the current government is perpetuating, I would still be there. __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

11-25-05, 07:13 AM	#16
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,767 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	Hello Kapitain, i did not mean to offend you, sorry. Things in Russia are certainly difficult, and you probably need a strong hand to keep control and hopefully lead the nation into better times. However several names on a list to choose from are not alone what makes a democracy, the chosen leaders should not act as dictators then, prohibiting free speech and free enterprise. There is still this "saga" that Hitler was elected - well, this is not quite the truth. Members of the german parliament were hindered to enter certain votes, they were frightened personally or beaten, or they were simply blackmailed in threatening their families by the SA. Anyone who voted against the party was written down and persecuted. I somehow would not call the final election "democratic". There is no way in comparing Germany back then and Russia today, and Putin certainly deserves a better evaluation. But hindering firms and business to act freely and arresting their leaders because they grew to a danger for Putin, or so he thought, is not democratic. There stilll is no free press. If someone gets really big enough threatening to be elected, he will get serious problems. And i do not see that Putin does enough against the Russian Mafia, instead he pursues "normal" business leaders and replaces them with his men. But i do not really know enough of what Putin really has in mind or plans - does anyone? Greetings, Catfish

11-26-05, 05:42 AM	#19
joea Silent Hunter Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: At periscope depth in Lake Geneva Posts: 3,512 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 0	Good post CCIP.

11-27-05, 11:27 AM	#23
Happy Times Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 2,950 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Would be nice to hear what scenarios have the people that voted "other". __________________

11-27-05, 11:45 AM	#24
Takeda Shingen Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2000 Posts: 8,643 Downloads: 19 Uploads: 0	I voted other, and say: Russia will continue to do what it has done since the formation of Muscovy. That is, consistantly lag behind the nations of the west and spend itself into the poorhouse in an attempt to catch up. There have always been slight increases in societal living, followed by great downturns, but this has been the general trend for the past 700 years, and Russian society and politics show no signs of deviating from this.

11-27-05, 12:17 PM	#25
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	Very good possibility, as much as I'd like to disagree - it is true. Russia, if anything, really has been following a very established historical pattern. The only thing is that the up-and-down turns lately have been more extreme - although it's true of the rest of the world, too. One may wonder if the volatility of this up-and-down cycle might actually ruin Russia - if not on this downturn, then perhaps on the next? :hmm: __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

11-27-05, 03:45 PM	#27
TteFAboB Admiral Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,247 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	Spit on them! C'mon, if enough of us spit on them we can drown them to death! Who needs a "fair trial" or "freedom of press", those are corrupt western lies anyway! Let's just spit on the bastards!

11-27-05, 05:36 PM	#30
Takeda Shingen Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2000 Posts: 8,643 Downloads: 19 Uploads: 0	CCIP is correct. Historically, Russia's greatest problems have occured when its leaders have attempted to imitate the manner of running things in the west. Politics in Russia are unlike that of any other nation. The same is said for its social problems. Ultimately, Russia will have to find Russian methods to solve Russian problems, whatever they may be. That being said, I doubt I will live to see it. It seems that the west believes that it knows what is best for Russia. Worse, many of Russia's politicians and leaders also believe this.