Destroyers Discussion (getting rid of pin point drops)

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by caspofungin

check this diagram out -- has some basic info

http://www.de220.com/Electronics/Son...20Patterns.jpg

Thanks , that is what we need to check and modify.

But i soupose those caracteristicas was not the same for all sonars, and during all the war.

Any ww do not need to adjust historical values, it is enough to adjust values to give us a good DD behavior.

Still testing.

[Heibges]

I have noticed similair behavior by Allied Aircraft. It seems that even in March 1942 there is no chance to dive safely from aircraft even if sighted at long range.

Is there a tweak for this?

[caspofungin]

ok, some historical values, which we can tweak for gameplay...

first, this stuff is hard to find. i don't have any print matterials, so if someone has access to books eg "Hitler's U-boat War" or electrical engineering journals, that would be useful. we don't need to go all out in terms of historical figures.

anyway,

type 123 -- pre-war and early war "searchlight" sonar, narrow beam as in diagram above but 360 degree sweep, range under operating conditions approx 2000m, 2500 ideal. 123A was (irl) an improvement w/ improved amplifiers and automatic "send" key, in game, i agree that the "p" and "a" suffixes denote passive and active respectively.

type 128 -- similar to 123

type 144 -- later system, "depth-finding," 45 degree vertical component, range 1200m, either 75 degree sweep either side or 360 degree sweep, depending on source. technical max speed 25kts, 20kts under operational conditions.

type 147A -- "Sword" attachment, 65 degree either side and -45 degree vertical, introduced 9/43

info from the diagram linked above, also "Hackmann, Willem. 1984. Seek & Strike: sonar, anti-submarine warfare and the Royal
Navy. London: Her Majesty's Stationery Office." which is basically the same diagram but a little more basic.

couldn't find any info on types 138, not sure about Qcia, Qgaa, Qcea.

[caspofungin]

i'm going to try and implement some of those values above. the 300m "blind spot" is an effect of the beam size limitations of the early war active sets. also, i'm going to artificially limit the 360 degree sweeps to 270 degreees to mimic baffles.

my 1 question is how the ai_sonar setting relates to all the different types available.

[gouldjg]

Qcia, Qgaa, Qcea

It is these that are confusing me.

I suspect it is not a specific type of equipment but seems to be in both passive and Active.

I am wondering if they represent a state of combat or similar.

Lets take the q away

CIA

GAA

CEA

Now I presume the last letter must be the same

so

CI
GA
CE

Hmmmm any ideas anyone.

think of it as a word puzzle,

It is these that I changed but I do not yt know if there are any side effects in early DD,s.

I am wondering what exactly is the DD bonus bye being elite veterern etc.

Do we have a translator who can translate in the devs language and see if the above are similar to crew skill levels.

[Der Teddy Bar]

From much testing of how things work, may I suggest that using the stock missions is not a good thing.

Make your own custom missions where you can control the environement and that the escorts grouping/s etc do not skew the tests. I would recommend just setting up InsertNumberHere of escorts in a far flung part of the world.

I would also suggest possibly increasing the Lost Contact time to keep the escort longer for these tests.

[gouldjg]

Originally Posted by Der Teddy Bar

From much testing of how things work, may I suggest that using the stock missions is not a good thing.

Make your own custom missions where you can control the environement and that the escorts grouping/s etc do not skew the tests. I would recommend just setting up InsertNumberHere of escorts in a far flung part of the world.

I would also suggest possibly increasing the Lost Contact time to keep the escort longer for these tests.

I just do not have any mission building skills.

I wonder if anyone has a mission in the next forum or they can whip one up for testing this.?

[Redwine]

Well ... i applied some changes based on key given by Timetraveller.

I attempt to identify pasive and active sonar looking on they arc angles and ranges.

I works on jungman's file, wich had reduced arc wide from 90 to 60 degrees.

I change beam depth angle (vertical angle) , on pasive sensors with angles from 80/170 ......... to 88/100.

And on actives with angles 90/100 ....to 90/95.



Tested only on U-505 stock mission :

They have now more problems to detect me if i do not do any stupid thing.

If i rise my periscope, they prey on me as before.

When they engage me, there are more posibiities to loss contact.

When i made full rudder turns, with them just on my back, some time they can not detect my turns or make more soft maneuvers than before, they looks not so precise as before in this behavior.

Any way they looks so precise even, they do not lose too much, but are not the same than before, i need more impressions to be sure.

If any one want to try, here is the file, it is easy to modify with Timetraveller Mini Tweak Tool.

http://rapidshare.de/files/7930762/AI_Sensors.zip.html

Try and comment

[gouldjg]

Originally Posted by Redwine

Well ... i applied some changes based on key given by Timetraveller.

I attempt to identify pasive and active sonar looking on they arc angles and ranges.

I works on jungman's file, wich had reduced arc wide from 90 to 60 degrees.

I change beam depth angle (vertical angle) , on pasive sensors with angles from 80/170 ......... to 88/100.

And on actives with angles 90/100 ....to 90/95.



Tested only on U-505 stock mission :

They have now more problems to detect me if i do not do any stupid thing.

If i rise my periscope, they prey on me as before.

When they engage me, there are more posibiities to loss contact.

When i made full rudder turns, with them just on my back, some time they can not detect my turns or make more soft maneuvers than before, they looks not so precise as before in this behavior.

Any way they looks so precise even, they do not lose too much, but are not the same than before, i need more impressions to be sure.

If any one want to try, here is the file, it is easy to modify with Timetraveller Mini Tweak Tool.

http://rapidshare.de/files/7930762/AI_Sensors.zip.html

Try and comment

Nice work

Have you identified all equipment i.e. the stuff i mentioned above. I know this is underwater stuff but do not know if it is equipment or bonus for crew ranks or conditions.

I will be happy if we get just a mere 7 second extended lead on the turn but anything better is a bonus.

I am wary of changes that may make them less able to detect me than now though as I feel that part should be upped if anything. i.. passive ranges.

I will have a bash with it.

My only change is changing Jungmans 60 more to 80 but I suppose oneday I will play the real campaign and come undone by this method.

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by gouldjg

Nice work

Have you identified all equipment i.e. the stuff i mentioned above.

I only soupose their function based on their angles and ranges, most in ranges.

A range short means it is an active and a long range means it is an pasive.

Values changed was those with

88/100 min/max elevation.
AI_Hydrophone
QGAP
QC1P
QCeP
Type144P
Type138P
Type128P
Type123P


90/95 min/max elevation.
AI_Sonar
QGAA
QC1A
QCeA
Type147A
Type144A
Type128A
Type123A

Originally Posted by gouldjg

I am wary of changes that may make them less able to detect me than now though as I feel that part should be upped if anything. i.. passive ranges.

I will have a bash with it.

I made no changes on maximun detection rages, only minimun seted at 200m, theoretically if i am into their beam i will be detected at same long distance than before.
I only mede the beams not too depest than before, so they will have troubles when over me or near me.

Any way, it is only an attempt, not intemption to be a mod, i soupose we need to works a lot of to obtain a balanced behavior between reality and game playability.

I put it because, the Mini Tweak Tool made a automatic save of the file, i do not open it with an hexeditor, i feel... just my impresion DDs behaviors changed a little bit, but need more opinions.

Just try and make your own changes during your test, one of all us will found a good set of settings :rotfl:

Any way i am more agree with Jungsman 60 degrees arc, they was so deadly and lucky before.

[HEMISENT]

Gould jg
I'm not the greatest at working up elaborate single missions but I'm pretty sure I can put something together for you for testing purposes.
I suck at modelling but perhaps I can make a small contribution in this way.
Let me know what you want in the way of:
location
u boat type
number/quality of escorts.

[CB..]

how does this issue relate to the stock game set up--why i ask is that (ala SH2) one of the issues i've had with SH3 is exaclty the opposite of this one--ie no matter how i set the game up (more so after the patch than before it) the DD's simply could not find me unless i deliberately gave the game away (went to flank /surfaced etc)

in fact i just got so fed up of getting away with murder when attacking convoys i stopped playing as nothing i did seemed to wake the DD's up--

recently tho i had another go and had to go into the game files (thanks to TT's tools ) and DOUBLE the detection range for the DD hydrophones

now finally they at least have a go at me without me having to deliberatley let them know im there--whew finally a bit of gameplay-- they are still pretty useless mind but at least there's some anxiety when attacking a convoy

there are odd ones out (as it were) ie some of the american DD's are far superior to the brits and can be very persistant but other than that i've had to make the damage system for the sub far more sensitive to damage than stock allso to make things more dangerous (this would be mid war 42/43)
puzzling that as per SH2 different folks have opposite problems with the DD sensors--(it certainly isn't down to my skills )

so wonder what the issue is?

one thing i have noticed is that when i am detected the DD's allways drop as the prow of the DD gets directly over head which means that the dc's allways explode behind me--- i wonder if the AI sometimes assumes it's armed with hedghogs when in fact it is using normal dc's-as dropping as the prow of the ship comes over head would work well with hedgehogs but obviously not so well with dc's

(this is of course with elite crews)

it's very frustrating either way you have this problem!!

and the soloution is obviuosly going to be different depending on what problem your having :hmm: wierd

[gouldjg]

Originally Posted by CB..

how does this issue relate to the stock game set up--why i ask is that (ala SH2) one of the issues i've had with SH3 is exaclty the opposite of this one--ie no matter how i set the game up (more so after the patch than before it) the DD's simply could not find me unless i deliberately gave the game away (went to flank /surfaced etc)

in fact i just got so fed up of getting away with murder when attacking convoys i stopped playing as nothing i did seemed to wake the DD's up--

recently tho i had another go and had to go into the game files (thanks to TT's tools ) and DOUBLE the detection range for the DD hydrophones

now finally they at least have a go at me without me having to deliberatley let them know im there--whew finally a bit of gameplay-- they are still pretty useless mind but at least there's some anxiety when attacking a convoy

there are odd ones out (as it were) ie some of the american DD's are far superior to the brits and can be very persistant but other than that i've had to make the damage system for the sub far more sensitive to damage than stock allso to make things more dangerous (this would be mid war 42/43)
puzzling that as per SH2 different folks have opposite problems with the DD sensors--(it certainly isn't down to my skills )

so wonder what the issue is?

one thing i have noticed is that when i am detected the DD's allways drop as the prow of the DD gets directly over head which means that the dc's allways explode behind me--- i wonder if the AI sometimes assumes it's armed with hedghogs when in fact it is using normal dc's-as dropping as the prow of the ship comes over head would work well with hedgehogs but obviously not so well with dc's

(this is of course with elite crews)

it's very frustrating either way you have this problem!!

and the soloution is obviuosly going to be different depending on what problem your having :hmm: wierd

I agree with you CB.

The DD are dumb yet deadly which is a game killer for me.

They practiclaly need telling you are there.

In SH2, I always had to be more cautious approaching the convoys.

My only concern is the pin point dropping. Once I rid this problem, it is then a matter of getting Late war DD to pick me up quicker and from further away.

Would be nice to be able to put all this top table form and then deal with each one in turn.

[Redwine]

Hi CB, nice to meet you into this topic, you had made the best mod for SH2........

I dont think so the DDs are so deadly, instead those american Dds yes they are.

The behavior i want to "fix" is the fact of they can detect my full turns when they are passing over me.

I dont think so it was posible in real life, sure was dificoult to a sonar operator to detect a full tuer of the sub when the Dd is near to just over the sub, and if they was able to do it when they was a little bit at stern, the sonar operator must to call the sub maneuver to an officer, it to the rudder control and then the ship can follow the sub turn.

Instead in the game, they can detect the full turn when over the sub and change DDs course instantaneously......

They have a Video Camera under the keel !! :rotfl:

Has i commented before when you done your excelent mod for SH2, the historical values are not important, the important is to obtain an historical or real or aceptable real behavior.

I was under prey for more than 24hs with your mod in SH2 ...that was a real behavior, disregarding settings.

[CB..]

i wonder if it's somehow down to the way the AI is programmed to co-operate during a DC attack---sometimes they do seem to work to-gether and some times they don't perhaps it's more down to that function which when it works it works too well and when it doesn't they are hopeless--
i'd be very interested in finding out the key files and entrys that control the tactics and "decisions" made by the AI wether to co-operate or not and why they adopt this tactic rather than another---i have only once seen them use the creeping attack- where one shadows you almost directly over head and to one side while another screams around dropping dc's one every run-- the tactic they allways use on me is the circling one where they form a rough perimeter around me and take it turns to make dc runs whilst the others sit stationary around the outside-- but the principle problem is often that they attack where i was last detected --no matter how much time has passed since the detection was made- so usually im long gone

for the pin point uber dd problem i wonder if it might be an easier approach to see if were possible to increase the effectiveness of the anti sonar coatings (must be a file with some sort of editable entry some where) that might actually give more interesting and variable results than attacking the DD sensors directly
but then it would make the useless one even worse-- i dunno

i'm working along the lines of uber hydrophones with longer detection times and shorter "lose" times- coupled with dodgy active sonar
so they can find me accurately (but lose me just as easily) there by ensuring some danger and excitment and hopefully some degree of sub damage often enough to make the gameplay "flow" but avoid the instant death scenario (which is as you say a complete gameplay killer )

thats one of the reasons i've gone for a far more fragile boat damage zones wise--whilst keeping the hull integrity tough--this means i can get major system damage losing the tubes scopes compressors batterys etc without any heavy damage to the hull integrity it works in the end because with all tubes destroyed --scopes destroyed-- even batterys and engines destroyed-- your just as dead as if you had been sunk (gameplay wise) but you get to limp home and try again another day