Singapore selects F-15T over Rafale

[Abraham]

Originally Posted by Kapitain

eurofighter is jointly made by the europeans hence the name eurofighter

britian france germany italy and holland i think were the countrys that make it

Count Holland out please. We'll make a quantum leap and go for something better* five to ten years from now. Till that moment our air force is quite satisfied with those nice updated F-16 beauties...



* JFS (wait and don't see!)

[Torpedo Fodder]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

The two major faults with MiG-29 and SAAB Gripen is range. This may have a lot to do with it. F-15 is a big plane and carries a lot of fuel.

Both are also inferior overall in air-to-air combat to the F-15. Effectiveness in BVR makes up a huge chunk of overall ATA capability, and the F-15 has much more capability in this area, including a much more powerful radar, more endurance, and greater thrust-to-weight ratio. The MiG-29 and Grippen are anougalous to the F-16 in most regards (including pricetag), not the F-15. The Russians' F-15 equivilents are the Su-27/Su-30 series, and it's telling that the latest models of these aircraft are just as expensive as late model F-15s.

One other item to remember about Singapore's requirements is that they were looking for an aircraft with "ground pounding" capability, because these aircraft are replacing the ancient A-4s Singapore is using now for that role. The F-15T is essentially an upgraded F-15E Strike Eagle, and thus is outstanding in that area. The Rafale is good for this as well, but it simply lacks the payload and range of the F-15. The Eurofighter right now essentially has no ground attack capabilitity, because of the "Tranched" capability implementation schedule, and it's full capabilities won't be available until 2010.

[PeriscopeDepth]

Originally Posted by Kapitain

eurofighter is jointly made by the europeans hence the name eurofighter

britian france germany italy and holland i think were the countrys that make it

What I'm saying is a French fighter should not be competing in sales.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by PeriscopeDepth

What I'm saying is a French fighter should not be competing in sales.

Capitalism, deal with it.

[PeriscopeDepth]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Capitalism, deal with it.

It's not really working out for them if they are loosing to an upgraded 30+ year old design, wouldn't you say?

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by PeriscopeDepth

It's not really working out for them if they are loosing to an upgraded 30+ year old design, wouldn't you say?

That’s Capitalism in its purest form, the best product wins. Economic Darwinism.

Having two good products doubles the chances of a sale.

[PeriscopeDepth]

I understand what capitalism is TLAM.

Having two good products doubles the chances of a sale.

That is simply not correct. Are you saying that Europe is offering both the EF and the Rafael? That's flat out wrong. A group of European nations is offering the EF and France is offering the Rafael. Which means seperate development costs and less unit buys, both domestic and foreign. And they both are going to/already have loose. They are 10 years too late and tens of millions of dollars too expensive in reinventing the wheel and trying to sell it. Let alone two different versions.

Originally Posted by Aviation Week and Space Technology, by Bill Dane

The Rafale is likely to be Dassault's final go-it-alone fighter. The French manufacturer has held preliminary talks with BAE Systems regarding future tactical requirements, and more recently signed an agreement with EADS that may result in the joint development of a replacement for the Rafale, Typhoon and Saab/BAE Systems JAS 39 Gripen. Collaborative studies will determine whether the design will be a manned or unmanned platform. Dassault would be the prime contractor for a manned or unmanned combat vehicle, whereas EADS would be the prime should the parties elect to collaborate on strategic reconnaissance UAVs.

http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/new...ws/sb05_p1.xml

[XabbaRus]

France was part of the original EFA group but dropped out to go it alone.

I also think this idea of going for UCAVs is daft.

The concept that they would be throw away mass attack craft has gone and instead they are looking likely to cost as much as a fully manned fighter plane.

Talk about reinventing the wheel. Some idiot in the British govt once upon a time thought all fighting would be done by missiles, and so a load of gret world beating projects were cancelled.

Yes UAVs have their place and so do UCAVs but to replace a manned strike fighter with a UCAV is madness.

The Tornado replacement the FOA - Future Offensive Aircraft has now turned to looking at UCAVs to fulfill the requirement. Big mistake as the UCAV will end up being large enough to put a man in it just by the nature of teh range/bombload requirements.

You know what will happen then. Some bright spark will go "Hey, we can put a guy in one of those things, have aman in the loop (again) so they'll spend millions to see how to fit a cockpit and everything else with it.

[PeriscopeDepth]

Yes UAVs have their place and so do UCAVs but to replace a manned strike fighter with a UCAV is madness.

Why Xab?

I consider developing and buying a $60+ million platform for Europe to be total idiocy. There will be peace in Europe for a long time to come, if not forever. Which means you are building your armed forces around peacekeeping. A fighter bomber is overkill for that role. If you can get your UCAV for under $25 million what's the point in buying a hugely expensive fighter bomber?

And BTW, the only way that Europe will be able to beat JSF sales is marketing a cheap UCAV IMO.

[Abraham]

Originally Posted by PeriscopeDepth

There will be peace in Europe for a long time to come, if not forever.

That would be good news for a change!

My only question is: does every nation agree on this? Also neighbouring states like Syria, Iran, the former Soviet republics?
At the beginning of the XXth Century people had the same thoughts, but Europe failed miserably...

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by PeriscopeDepth

I understand what capitalism is TLAM.

That is simply not correct. Are you saying that Europe is offering both the EF and the Rafael? That's flat out wrong. A group of European nations is offering the EF and France is offering the Rafael. Which means seperate development costs and less unit buys, both domestic and foreign. And they both are going to/already have loose. They are 10 years too late and tens of millions of dollars too expensive in reinventing the wheel and trying to sell it. Let alone two different versions.

I thought France was current part of the EF team. It would make sense to export both the EF and Rafael, no matter what the customer chooses to buy you get paid.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by PeriscopeDepth

There will be peace in Europe for a long time to come, if not forever.

???? Balkans doesn't make you rethink that statement? Or the EU wanting to share borders with the Middle East in the forseeable future (Turkey entrance)? Oil becomes short, pipeleines become priority targets for Europe is depending on them, they lead thorugh Easteuropean countries that are within range of civil unrest and violance that may emerge from countries that once belonged to the southern provinces of the USSR. If these pipelines get threatened by whatever a faction and to too much effect, then europe could be drawn into military conflicts sooner than people can imagine. And the problems on the Balkans remain. then there is russia itself. Belarus. Cyprus. Greece - Macedonia - Turkey. Northafrica, the pressure of migration patterns, and spreading of orthodox Islam. Poor nations may swtich over to desparate means.

I wouldn't take peace in Europe as granted - only as more likely than a new great war.

Currently.

[Torpedo Fodder]

Originally Posted by PeriscopeDepth

It's not really working out for them if they are loosing to an upgraded 30+ year old design, wouldn't you say?

The Eurofighter was in this same competition against the Rafale and F-15, but was eliminated from the running 5 months ago. By any standard, the Rafale did better than the Eurofighter this time around since it made it all the way to the finals. Three years ago, South Korea also opted to buy F-15s, beating out competitiors that included the Eurofighter, Rafale, and Su-35.

The Eurofighter is not really faring much better than the Rafale in the export market. Last I checked, the only country outside the original consortium (Britain, Germany, Italy, Spain) to have ordered any is Austria, and they're not buying all that many.

[Kapitan]

peace in europe huh ????

thats not what i saw in bosnia in 1999 if that was peace cor i dread to think what war is

[PeriscopeDepth]

So you all think Europe playing a supporting role again in the next AF would be accomplished best by the EF/Rafale?

And it was Kosovo in 1999, Kapitain. Not Bosnia.