Sub Vs Sub Cold war style - Page 2

SquidB · 08-28-05, 09:24 AM

Yes but that is what we are asking.

Is it normal practice for a sub to have its towed array out. If so then how can you get into a submarines baffles.

Under ice i can see that you would not deploy it, although i have in game. Question is what is normal practice in RL

Takeda Shingen · 08-28-05, 09:28 AM

I think you're going to have a hard time tracking that type of information down. Current operating procedures are not readily discussed, and anything found would likely be little more than heresay.

For what it is worth, my thoughts are that you would deploy a sensor of value (which I assume a TA is) as frequently and as long as possible.

Kapitan · 08-28-05, 09:30 AM

i would immagine out in RL but as im not going to fast in the game i find i can pick up contacts using hull mounted sensors and some times even the periscope

its all about timeing monovering and skill when i detect a contact im normaly only about 15 miles away so i just head for an intercept course very very slowly (about 3 to 4 knots)

SquidB · 08-28-05, 09:33 AM

Theres no way your going to detect a sub contact first with your bow array.

If they have their TA deployed they will know all about you long before you pick them up.

That is of course unless they are doing a rate of knots.

Takeda Shingen · 08-28-05, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SquidB

Theres no way your going to detect a sub contact first with your bow array.

If they have their TA deployed they will know all about you long before you pick them up.

That is of course unless they are doing a rate of knots.

Agreed. Going 'TA-less' in MP is suicide.

Kapitan · 08-28-05, 09:37 AM

i just normaly sit there at 3 or 4 knots so theres not much chance of a pick up where some one who is doing 10 knots or more is

i do use TA just not often

Takeda Shingen · 08-28-05, 09:41 AM

Oh no, they can still find you with that tell-tale 50Hz line your plant gives off. I use that trick all the time: Such a signature with no BB noise=Russian submarine in area.

Kapitan · 08-28-05, 09:49 AM

this isnt mp as we all know the AI subs are pretty dumb if it was mp then id be using a diffrent tactic

Takeda Shingen · 08-28-05, 09:54 AM

The question posted in this thread specifically relates to MP.

Kapitan · 08-28-05, 10:02 AM

whoops lol didnt see that part

Bellman · 08-28-05, 12:02 PM

Reports of real-life sub operations indicate regular baffle clearance procedures.
The inference is that this refers to rear baffles.

In DW MP running mostly with TA out you have no rear (TA) baffles. You are concerned with forward baffles
but the arc from 30 deg to 330 deg is covered.

We are concerned to track often faint NB traces and are TA dependent for range.

I mantain that we should have an area around 180 deg where TA sonar performance is diminished.
Whether this amounts to a baffle or just reduced range ability is not clear.
I suspect that this is a 'sensitive' topic so I wont press home my point.

LuftWolf · 08-29-05, 01:53 AM

From the speculation file...

Bellman, in defense of the argument against a baffled TA, all of the calculations of sound picked up by the array undergo a massive digital transformation before being displayed as signals with a bearing.

I believe that we may have computers sensitive enough to minimize any degredation.

Also, TA's, from any country, definately have a certain water-lifespan. That is, the more you run around with it streamed, the sooner you are going to have to be in port so someone can pull it apart.

EDIT: I can't even describe the avatar I have now...

Bellman · 08-29-05, 02:17 AM

I will take a lot of convincing that there is not serious reception degradation at the 180 deg. :hmm:

Avatar - Neals Texan humour

......Temporary gag (I hope

)

My favourites are the 'Shore Leave' and 'Night in a brothel' ones. Good fun.

His favourite trick is to withdraw it just after you post a reaction - leaving you thinking '' Wow - Am I seeing things -
did I really drink that much !! "

:rotfl:

Dr.Sid · 08-29-05, 02:34 AM

I still don't get it. If I have TA 300m behind the sub, why should be its 'coverage' only 180 degrees ? Ship is 300m away, it would only be strong contact, nothing else. Disturbances (wake) of the sub should not affect TA, because TA is in different depth than sub.
I think TA should hear almost while cirlce quite clear. In the fron there should always be strong own-ship contact, that's why the 'masking' is there. But the masking would not work in the turns anyway (and it does not).
Onlw when TA gets into wake, which can happen with depth changes or at high speed, TA should be affected, but all circle in similar way.
I of course don't have any knowledge of how rhis works in real life.

Bellman · 08-29-05, 02:47 AM

Dr. Sid

Quote:

why should be its 'coverage' only 180 degrees ?

Thats not what I said. The DW TA coverage is apparently an arc of
300 deg (030 - 330 deg) as shown in the documentation.

I refer to the fact that I would expect reception to degradate behind the sub at and around its 180 deg bearng.
In reality (who knows) the arc might be say 158 - 202 deg with a deteriorating starting
at such bearings and climaxing at 180 (ish)

I am 'observing' that there is a TA baffle behind real subs.

If so (?) then DW should/could model it ? :hmm:

08-28-05, 09:30 AM	#18
Kapitan Sub Test Pilot Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK + Canada Posts: 7,130 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 7	i would immagine out in RL but as im not going to fast in the game i find i can pick up contacts using hull mounted sensors and some times even the periscope its all about timeing monovering and skill when i detect a contact im normaly only about 15 miles away so i just head for an intercept course very very slowly (about 3 to 4 knots) __________________ DONT FORGET if you like a post to nominate it by using the blue diamond Find out about Museum Ships here: https://www.museumships.us/ Flickr for all my pictures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131313936@N03/ Navy general board articles: https://www.navygeneralboard.com/author/aegis/

08-28-05, 09:37 AM	#21
Kapitan Sub Test Pilot Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK + Canada Posts: 7,130 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 7	i just normaly sit there at 3 or 4 knots so theres not much chance of a pick up where some one who is doing 10 knots or more is i do use TA just not often __________________ DONT FORGET if you like a post to nominate it by using the blue diamond Find out about Museum Ships here: https://www.museumships.us/ Flickr for all my pictures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131313936@N03/ Navy general board articles: https://www.navygeneralboard.com/author/aegis/

08-28-05, 09:49 AM	#23
Kapitan Sub Test Pilot Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK + Canada Posts: 7,130 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 7	this isnt mp as we all know the AI subs are pretty dumb if it was mp then id be using a diffrent tactic __________________ DONT FORGET if you like a post to nominate it by using the blue diamond Find out about Museum Ships here: https://www.museumships.us/ Flickr for all my pictures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131313936@N03/ Navy general board articles: https://www.navygeneralboard.com/author/aegis/

08-28-05, 10:02 AM	#25
Kapitan Sub Test Pilot Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK + Canada Posts: 7,130 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 7	whoops lol didnt see that part __________________ DONT FORGET if you like a post to nominate it by using the blue diamond Find out about Museum Ships here: https://www.museumships.us/ Flickr for all my pictures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131313936@N03/ Navy general board articles: https://www.navygeneralboard.com/author/aegis/

08-28-05, 12:02 PM	#26
Bellman Sea Lord Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 1,945 Downloads: 220 Uploads: 0	Reports of real-life sub operations indicate regular baffle clearance procedures. The inference is that this refers to rear baffles. In DW MP running mostly with TA out you have no rear (TA) baffles. You are concerned with forward baffles but the arc from 30 deg to 330 deg is covered. We are concerned to track often faint NB traces and are TA dependent for range. I mantain that we should have an area around 180 deg where TA sonar performance is diminished. Whether this amounts to a baffle or just reduced range ability is not clear. I suspect that this is a 'sensitive' topic so I wont press home my point. __________________ Liberty, Equality, Fraternity

08-28-05, 09:24 AM	#16
SquidB Officer Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Lytham UK Posts: 244 Downloads: 169 Uploads: 0	Yes but that is what we are asking. Is it normal practice for a sub to have its towed array out. If so then how can you get into a submarines baffles. Under ice i can see that you would not deploy it, although i have in game. Question is what is normal practice in RL

08-28-05, 09:28 AM	#17
Takeda Shingen Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2000 Posts: 8,643 Downloads: 19 Uploads: 0	I think you're going to have a hard time tracking that type of information down. Current operating procedures are not readily discussed, and anything found would likely be little more than heresay. For what it is worth, my thoughts are that you would deploy a sensor of value (which I assume a TA is) as frequently and as long as possible.

08-28-05, 09:33 AM	#19
SquidB Officer Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Lytham UK Posts: 244 Downloads: 169 Uploads: 0	Theres no way your going to detect a sub contact first with your bow array. If they have their TA deployed they will know all about you long before you pick them up. That is of course unless they are doing a rate of knots.

08-28-05, 09:41 AM	#22
Takeda Shingen Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2000 Posts: 8,643 Downloads: 19 Uploads: 0	Oh no, they can still find you with that tell-tale 50Hz line your plant gives off. I use that trick all the time: Such a signature with no BB noise=Russian submarine in area.

08-28-05, 09:54 AM	#24
Takeda Shingen Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2000 Posts: 8,643 Downloads: 19 Uploads: 0	The question posted in this thread specifically relates to MP.

08-29-05, 01:53 AM	#27
LuftWolf Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: Free New York Posts: 3,167 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	From the speculation file... Bellman, in defense of the argument against a baffled TA, all of the calculations of sound picked up by the array undergo a massive digital transformation before being displayed as signals with a bearing. I believe that we may have computers sensitive enough to minimize any degredation. Also, TA's, from any country, definately have a certain water-lifespan. That is, the more you run around with it streamed, the sooner you are going to have to be in port so someone can pull it apart. EDIT: I can't even describe the avatar I have now... __________________ LW

08-29-05, 02:17 AM	#28
Bellman Sea Lord Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 1,945 Downloads: 220 Uploads: 0	I will take a lot of convincing that there is not serious reception degradation at the 180 deg. :hmm: Avatar - Neals Texan humour ......Temporary gag (I hope ) My favourites are the 'Shore Leave' and 'Night in a brothel' ones. Good fun. His favourite trick is to withdraw it just after you post a reaction - leaving you thinking '' Wow - Am I seeing things - did I really drink that much !! " :rotfl: __________________ Liberty, Equality, Fraternity

08-29-05, 02:34 AM	#29
Dr.Sid The Old Man Join Date: May 2005 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 1,458 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	I still don't get it. If I have TA 300m behind the sub, why should be its 'coverage' only 180 degrees ? Ship is 300m away, it would only be strong contact, nothing else. Disturbances (wake) of the sub should not affect TA, because TA is in different depth than sub. I think TA should hear almost while cirlce quite clear. In the fron there should always be strong own-ship contact, that's why the 'masking' is there. But the masking would not work in the turns anyway (and it does not). Onlw when TA gets into wake, which can happen with depth changes or at high speed, TA should be affected, but all circle in similar way. I of course don't have any knowledge of how rhis works in real life.