False ship data? - Page 2

bstanko6 · 03-27-20, 05:21 PM

Just to chime in here, you seem to have a handle on this.

The attack wheel on your scope has limitations. Once a ship passes the 90deg range AOB... the markings on the wheel do not align. It's hard to explain without showing. When a ship is going away from you, you will have negative or as you say "erroneous" results. With practice you can still get accurate shots, but the numbers will be in the negatives range.

Good luck!

nazaka · 03-27-20, 05:54 PM

Negative value?

no, as the AOB exceeds 90°, the result obtained must be subtracted from 180.

A.3 [In cases when ship is moving AWAY from you] AOB when exceeding 90 Degrees.

1. If the ship is moving away exceeding 90 degrees, use formula:
180 Minus Determined AOB from the steps taking in A.2.

source: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil...earchtext=disc

bstanko6, I checked the ship that I had a problem with, and it was an error in notation of mast height that was the cause of it

bstanko6 · 03-27-20, 07:53 PM

Ah ok. But the problem you named is common. Glad you figured it out.

hauangua · 03-28-20, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nazaka

I created him.

If you want to check it out:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1M2...DKzxoz5AHcNPCZ

all you have to do is put it in the "SingleMissions" folder.

You'll find it easily, it's the one without a name (I don't know why).

thanks i will try to test and let you know

nazaka · 03-28-20, 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bstanko6

Ah ok. But the problem you named is common. Glad you figured it out.

If it's a known concern, why hasn't anyone made a subject to list it?

I just modified the CFG file for the ship in question. And that was accounted for by the ship's identification book.

I'm testing most of the ships, I'll give you a summary of the ships to be modified if you wish.

vdr1981 · 03-28-20, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nazaka

I'm testing most of the ships, I'll give you a summary of the ships to be modified if you wish.

That would be very useful...

Thanks!

hauangua · 03-29-20, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nazaka

If it's a known concern, why hasn't anyone made a subject to list it?

I just modified the CFG file for the ship in question. And that was accounted for by the ship's identification book

But you you have TWoS installed ..? Or other Mod?

nazaka · 03-29-20, 01:12 AM

yes, i have TWOS and this list:

vdr1981 · 03-29-20, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nazaka

yes, i have TWOS and this list:

Hmm...I'd say with that kind of mod soup you can expect larger problems than just a few incorrect mast height /length values from the rec. manual. Happy (bug) hunting!

nazaka · 03-29-20, 11:51 AM

all my mods are either optional TWOS mods, or translation mods (FRA=French), or the addition of tool to draw (the last EQuaTool)

Thanks, you too

propbeanie · 03-29-20, 01:27 PM

Look at the dates of some of your FRA mods though nazaka, and they pre-date TWoS... you might also have some you do not really need. There is no harm in removing some of the mods to see if the game then runs better or more reliably on your computer.

The mast height "issue" was there in the rec manuals issued to all submarine skippers, no matter their nationality or the battle fought. There is always erroneous data, no matter the application. This is one of several things the devs did correctly. Also, the game pulls data from more than just the cfg files. Some comes from the sim file, but my mind cannot recall which is which...

nazaka · 03-29-20, 02:04 PM

Hello propbeanie,

I have just made a test by uninstalling the mods different from TWOS, even the translations.

I reinstalled them one by one, and I looked at the files which was modified for each of them. NONE modifies the ships folder ("Sea" folder)

And yes, I'm willing to have 1-meter uncertainties, but when I see certain values, it's scary.

The most telling example is the hospital ship.
Mast height before modification: 33m
Height of mast after verification: 39.5m

If you want to keep playing with such a mistake, no worries.
I don't.

propbeanie · 03-29-20, 08:53 PM

Those aren't necessarily "mistakes" is what I'm saying about the mast height figures. Pre-war, the merchant marine of various nations had information on their own, and other nations ships, generally freely available from various sources. After the war started, the merchant marine of a given nation would think to themselves "how can I make it more difficult for a submarine to target my ships accurately?" So they would cut the height of the masts, or add more to them. Thinking further, if they would paint geometric shapes of various colors on the side of their ships, that would also "break the lines" of the ship as you were viewing it in the periscope at a distance, such that it might look much further away than it was, or much closer. Add a fake stack to alter the outline, or with a fake bow splash painted on, it would change the appearance of its speed. There were various "tricks" they used in attempts to make it to where the submarine skipper would miss a particular ship more often than not, if they weren't able to get in close and at a 90° track to their target, such that none of that matters. You just basically point and shoot then... but with "unreliable" targeting information, such as in the game's recognition manual, it is more like what a kaleun actually had to deal with... ??

By the same token, I also understand your desire for reliable information. It is a real bother to track a convoy for 12 hours or longer, waiting for dark, maybe rougher seas - some rain would be good, get your boat on a good intersect course, split through the escorts, only to be off several hundred yards on your track and the range is 1200 and not 900 meters, and then miss with three torpedoes behind, in spite of corrections... Perfect line-up and spread, other than the mast height was off by 6.5 meters, or whatever...

03-27-20, 05:21 PM	#16
bstanko6 Admiral Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Murwik Naval Academy Posts: 2,130 Downloads: 390 Uploads: 13	Just to chime in here, you seem to have a handle on this. The attack wheel on your scope has limitations. Once a ship passes the 90deg range AOB... the markings on the wheel do not align. It's hard to explain without showing. When a ship is going away from you, you will have negative or as you say "erroneous" results. With practice you can still get accurate shots, but the numbers will be in the negatives range. Good luck! __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] BSTANKO6'S SH5 NAVAL ACADEMY http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPbe...W2NArCA/videos DISCORD https://discord.gg/6tFeTSUmVc

03-27-20, 07:53 PM	#18
bstanko6 Admiral Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Murwik Naval Academy Posts: 2,130 Downloads: 390 Uploads: 13	Ah ok. But the problem you named is common. Glad you figured it out. __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] BSTANKO6'S SH5 NAVAL ACADEMY http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPbe...W2NArCA/videos DISCORD https://discord.gg/6tFeTSUmVc

03-29-20, 01:27 PM	#26
propbeanie CTD - it's not just a job Join Date: May 2016 Location: One hour from Music City USA! Posts: 10,098 Downloads: 451 Uploads: 2	Look at the dates of some of your FRA mods though nazaka, and they pre-date TWoS... you might also have some you do not really need. There is no harm in removing some of the mods to see if the game then runs better or more reliably on your computer. The mast height "issue" was there in the rec manuals issued to all submarine skippers, no matter their nationality or the battle fought. There is always erroneous data, no matter the application. This is one of several things the devs did correctly. Also, the game pulls data from more than just the cfg files. Some comes from the sim file, but my mind cannot recall which is which... __________________ "...and bollocks to the naysayers" - Jimbuna

03-29-20, 08:53 PM	#28
propbeanie CTD - it's not just a job Join Date: May 2016 Location: One hour from Music City USA! Posts: 10,098 Downloads: 451 Uploads: 2	Those aren't necessarily "mistakes" is what I'm saying about the mast height figures. Pre-war, the merchant marine of various nations had information on their own, and other nations ships, generally freely available from various sources. After the war started, the merchant marine of a given nation would think to themselves "how can I make it more difficult for a submarine to target my ships accurately?" So they would cut the height of the masts, or add more to them. Thinking further, if they would paint geometric shapes of various colors on the side of their ships, that would also "break the lines" of the ship as you were viewing it in the periscope at a distance, such that it might look much further away than it was, or much closer. Add a fake stack to alter the outline, or with a fake bow splash painted on, it would change the appearance of its speed. There were various "tricks" they used in attempts to make it to where the submarine skipper would miss a particular ship more often than not, if they weren't able to get in close and at a 90° track to their target, such that none of that matters. You just basically point and shoot then... but with "unreliable" targeting information, such as in the game's recognition manual, it is more like what a kaleun actually had to deal with... ?? By the same token, I also understand your desire for reliable information. It is a real bother to track a convoy for 12 hours or longer, waiting for dark, maybe rougher seas - some rain would be good, get your boat on a good intersect course, split through the escorts, only to be off several hundred yards on your track and the range is 1200 and not 900 meters, and then miss with three torpedoes behind, in spite of corrections... Perfect line-up and spread, other than the mast height was off by 6.5 meters, or whatever... __________________ "...and bollocks to the naysayers" - Jimbuna

03-27-20, 05:54 PM	#17
nazaka A-ganger Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 75 Downloads: 54 Uploads: 0	Negative value? no, as the AOB exceeds 90°, the result obtained must be subtracted from 180. A.3 [In cases when ship is moving AWAY from you] AOB when exceeding 90 Degrees. 1. If the ship is moving away exceeding 90 degrees, use formula: 180 Minus Determined AOB from the steps taking in A.2. source: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil...earchtext=disc bstanko6, I checked the ship that I had a problem with, and it was an error in notation of mast height that was the cause of it

03-29-20, 01:12 AM	#23
nazaka A-ganger Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 75 Downloads: 54 Uploads: 0	yes, i have TWOS and this list:

03-29-20, 11:51 AM	#25
nazaka A-ganger Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 75 Downloads: 54 Uploads: 0	all my mods are either optional TWOS mods, or translation mods (FRA=French), or the addition of tool to draw (the last EQuaTool) Thanks, you too

03-29-20, 02:04 PM	#27
nazaka A-ganger Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 75 Downloads: 54 Uploads: 0	Hello propbeanie, I have just made a test by uninstalling the mods different from TWOS, even the translations. I reinstalled them one by one, and I looked at the files which was modified for each of them. NONE modifies the ships folder ("Sea" folder) And yes, I'm willing to have 1-meter uncertainties, but when I see certain values, it's scary. The most telling example is the hospital ship. Mast height before modification: 33m Height of mast after verification: 39.5m If you want to keep playing with such a mistake, no worries. I don't.