Why Did America Stop Building the Best (and Most Dangerous Sub)

[Rockstar]

I've heard autonomous technology is the biggest thing since the Manhatten Project. You could probably buy a dozen autonomous subs for half the price of one seawolf.

[Cybermat47]

Didn't a Seawolf get a very mysterious combat citation?

Hopefully I'm still alive when if they declassify that...

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

I've heard autonomous technology is the biggest thing since the Manhatten Project. You could probably buy a dozen autonomous subs for half the price of one seawolf.

Not really, as you need powerplant and all those things other than humans that make a submarine work. Remember, you can cut down crew size to very small values through automation, like 32 strong crews on Alfas.

[Rockstar]

I wasnt thinking about a torpedo and harpoon launching hunter killer submarine as we know them today sans crew. I was thinking of ones with a 1kw generator and snorkle used to recharge its battery power plant able to dive to 6000 meters and a sensor package which allows it to detect, identify and track underwater adversaries. Only human involvment is when the button is pushed to deliver a ship or land based ASW hypersonic asset to its location.

[AVGWarhawk]

Let's add another country for a good reason to have keep developing submarines.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...p_ref=politics

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

I wasnt thinking about a torpedo and harpoon launching hunter killer submarine as we know them today sans crew. I was thinking of ones with a 1kw generator and snorkle used to recharge its battery power plant able to dive to 6000 meters and a sensor package which allows it to detect, identify and track underwater adversaries. Only human involvment is when the button is pushed to deliver a ship or land based ASW hypersonic asset to its location.

This. Floating or diving autonomous drones will be small. Do not think in terms of an SSN here. Maybe not even a small SS. Half that size, or smaller. I think these things will get armed sooner or later.

Autonomy is the logical next step if you want to avoid the vulneraiblity of a remote link. I don't like it, but it will happen.

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

I wasnt thinking about a torpedo and harpoon launching hunter killer submarine as we know them today sans crew. I was thinking of ones with a 1kw generator and snorkle used to recharge its battery power plant able to dive to 6000 meters and a sensor package which allows it to detect, identify and track underwater adversaries. Only human involvment is when the button is pushed to deliver a ship or land based ASW hypersonic asset to its location.

That is not going to work b/c you need displacement for your powerplant, sensor and armament needs. Without a quantum leap in minuturisation of those (and we do not see such a leap happening) you wont go anywhere.

On the other hand current Russian desighns assume UUV integration for autonomous target search for example or other specialist needs, but those UUVs all need a mothersub to operate. That is where we are going with the Oscar-III refit for example, hypersonics and UUVs.

[Rockstar]

Heres a document released for public consumption in 2004 outlining the U.S. Navy's ideas how to use their new AUV/UUV toys.

http://www.navy.mil/navydata/technology/uuvmp.pdf

Its got to be cheaper than building a fleet of Seawolves which was why I think they may have stopped building them. I still see a need for manned submarines as a weapons platform and as suggested a mothership to UUVs and ROVs, but I think only for a short time. I've read they already have in the works plans for UUV motherships now too.

Something else to think about, with an AUV you dont need to pack all of your capability into one vehicle like currently manned submarines have. Instead you can have a multitude of smaller specialized vehicles all thinking and working together as one. Kinda like those scary Perdix autonomous drone swarms, except underwater.



Listen to those Perdix swarm at the end of the video. Imagine if you were on a sub underwater and heard that noise as AUV's swarmed about before the kill. Sounds like something right out of a horror film.

[Jimbuna]

^ Awesome

[Skybird]

Ah, wanted to post it, too, and still do:

https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Re...-demonstration

I mentioned it in earlier threads: the big thing after AI autonomy will be swarm AI.

Can get out of hand, as this slightly utopic thriller novel illustrated:

https://www.amazon.com/Kill-Decision...ds=suarez+kill

Nice holiday fodder. His novels Daemon, Dark Net and Freedom also are critical and exciting confrontation scenarios with an overboarding AI world. Suarez is kind of Tom Clancy for the cyberworld.

[ikalugin]

The problem with swarms is about their inherent limitations - for example in terms of onboard energy generation for propulsion/weapons.

As to switching to unmanned UUV motherships - ethics force you to keep a man in the loop.

Imagine if you were on a sub underwater and heard that noise as AUV's swarmed about before the kill.

In an SSN you can always outrun those light UUVs, decoy them (remember small size = poor sensors and processing power) and so on and so forth. Under water you then get the comms problem, that is - it is hard to make a good and stealthy comm system for under water (though I guess there was decent work done on green lasers).

(those are but few out of many reasons why in addition to the small/electrically powered/slow recon UUVs we are desighning large/nuclear powered/fast UUVs)

[Onkel Neal]

Oh wow, that's.... scary and impressive. I always think, whatever we know about now, must be several years behind what the military is capable of now.

[ikalugin]

If you keep yourself informed you know more or less where things stand.

In terms of nuclear submersibles - we are working both on autonomous UUVs and on the power generation modules for deployable sensor networks. For both of those we are gettin the mothersubs.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

The problem with swarms is about their inherent limitations - for example in terms of onboard energy generation for propulsion/weapons.

That is no limitation for a swarm per se, but for the individual unit. Once a unit has overcome that limit, many units building swarms can be build. And will.

As to switching to unmanned UUV motherships - ethics force you to keep a man in the loop.

Ethics are just an idea and thus enforce nothing. And will not. Its war technology we talk of. Since when have ethics stopped mankind from using tools for war that can be used for war? Or have stopped mankind to wage war in the first? War is mankind's favourite hobby.

An then there is the chance I mentioned earlier: that AI already has reached a status wehre now it developes and unfolds all by itself as a self-emerging structure in the menaing of how this term is use din chaos theory. I think the inner dynamic canot be stopped anymore. And what technologically an done, will be done, in all regards. History shows that in dramatic clarity.

At least as long as no Mister named Butler strolls by and launches his jihad.

A small reference to Frank Herbert's Dune novels.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

Listen to those Perdix swarm at the end of the video. Imagine if you were on a sub underwater and heard that noise as AUV's swarmed about before the kill. Sounds like something right out of a horror film.

This is diabolical!!