How to mod ZON files?

[trebby]

OK,

I followed as follows:

Open Goblin app:
In Goblin top menu:
file-open-select "NSS-Uboat7c.GR2", wait a bit...
file-merge- select "NSS_7c.ZON"
file merge- select "NSS_7c.SIM"

In the Goblin Editor:

Double left clic ColisionableObject NSS 7c opens edit field
Single left clic in that opens right Hand field, Change "CrashDepth" value (300m) and Close window.
Now the ZON entries became red.
Did in the ZON the same as before, but new value of 300m was automatically there.
Goblin main: file-save (turns red into black again)
Exit Goblin...

Enter CFG file with Notebook, then:

[Properties]
PeriscopeDepth=12.0
SnorkelDepth=14.0
CrashDepth=300
MaxDepth=500
DiveDepth=35
SurfaceDepth=5
TorpLaunchMaxDepth=20;meters
StormConditions=11,0.4;max wind speed [m/s], max rain intensity [0,1]



I indeed can dive beyond 300m. However Sub is lost because in Zentrale damage area "pressure hull" starts losing Points (from passing 204m on) till it is destroyed. It keeps sinking till "hull integrety" is also "0".

So the cause of death is passing 204m really. (unless immediate surfacing is done. Then even Zentrale press hull can be repaired.)

This I think matches your description with the remark that only TDW might shed some light on this...

If I could delay the "decay" of the press hull to say 290m I probably would get it done.
You mentioned the ZON files of the Systems, but so far I have not found the pressure hull "decay"depth yet...




This:

Regarding the problem with hull collapsing way before the set crash depth is reached, I doubt this is due to any mistake you might have done while tweaking the relevant settings. In my opinion, the point is that as I had written in a previous post, those settings are applied in an odd way that I don't fully understand. The one person that can shed some light on the topic is probably TDW [/QUOTE]

Trebb.

[gap]

Originally Posted by trebby

I followed as follows:

....

From your description, you used Goblin the right way. If you want to make sure that your settings were saved correctly just close Goblin, run it again, open/merge again GR2 and zon files (merging the sim file isn't really needed in your case), and check that the crash depth property is still set to 300.

Originally Posted by trebby

I indeed can dive beyond 300m. However Sub is lost because in Zentrale damage area "pressure hull" starts losing Points (from passing 204m on) till it is destroyed. It keeps sinking till "hull integrety" is also "0".

Two thoughts:

- how are you testing your changes? Have you made sure that you are performing your diving drills on the same u-boat whose settings you had previously modded?

- single zones' 'crash depth' settings, as set in zones.cfg, override the main settings found in u-boat's zon and cfg files. If you are using RSD, it is possible that Vecko has set some critical u-boat zone(s) to crash at around 200 m though I doubt it.

Originally Posted by trebby

You mentioned the ZON files of the Systems, but so far I have not found the pressure hull "decay"depth yet...

To the best of my knowledge, there is not a single "pressure hull" zone, but various system and compartment zones. You should ask vdr1981 on how the general pressure hull damage, as shown in the damage management interface, is calculated

[trebby]

OK,

Goblin editing double checked, changes saved ok.

All changes/checking on active and stable Steel Wolves Megamod (inclusive RSD).

I only test on VIIC boat, as a separate mod, I: activate-change with goblin-reactivate. Then I use the U110 historical (VIIC) Mission to dive to 300plus and have the damage Screen and depth Counter in sight.

The depth at which the Zentrale pressure hull takes damage is
unchanged, remains at 204m. I tried reducing the "damage Points per hitpoint" value, but that is only working at "0", causing a "crash-to-mainscreen" at 500m.(having no leakage ect is unrealistic anyway)

In other instances (norm dam Point hit value "15") it took till about 450m until deathscreen came. So Eventough crushdepth set at 300m, no sudden death on passing that. The time to "0" hull integrety being determining, sinking all the way, and (insane) depth having no direct influence.

The key seems to Change the start of decay of the Zentrale pressure hull Zone away from 204m if deeper diving allowed.

GAP said:
"- single zones' 'crash depth' settings, as set in zones.cfg, override the main settings found in u-boat's zon and cfg files. If you are using RSD, it is possible that Vecko has set some critical u-boat zone(s) to crash at around 200 m though I doubt it."

I might be wrong, but it does look that way...
Have contacted Vecko, see what happens.

Thanks for coaching me trough the Goblin and your encouragement Gap!



Will stay tuned, cheers Trebb.

[gap]

Originally Posted by trebby

OK,

Goblin editing double checked, changes saved ok.

At least you learned how to use Goblin

Originally Posted by trebby

GAP said:
"- single zones' 'crash depth' settings, as set in zones.cfg, override the main settings found in u-boat's zon and cfg files. If you are using RSD, it is possible that Vecko has set some critical u-boat zone(s) to crash at around 200 m though I doubt it."

I might be wrong, but it does look that way...
Have contacted Vecko, see what happens.

There are two easy ways to ascertain it: wainting for an answer by Vecko , or disabling temporarily The Wolves of Steel and repeating your tests with stock game.

On a side note: have you tried setting boat.cfg/boat.zon's crash depth deeper than 300 meters? Does it make any difference?

Originally Posted by trebby

Thanks for coaching me trough the Goblin and your encouragement Gap!

My own pleasure trebby. I am always glad to help as I can someone who wants to learn

[trebby]

OK, contacted Vecko,

He said crush behaviour is on his radar for the next version of RSD.
Shared some thoughts.


For the record:

Did testing on vanilla versus Steel Wolves:

Vanilla only has struct integrety and no compartment press hull.
It also does not flood because of depth.
Only struct integrety loss happens at depth of choosing, so easy to mod/enlarge crushdepth.
2 days ago that would suit me, now I know theres more possible so it aint good enough....

1. CFG file MAXDEPTH value at 220m or 400m no noticable impact.

2. ZON file:

crash depth value x 0.8 =+/- effective game crushdepth. (based on 3 tests)

Setting the crashpoint per sec up to 2000 versus dam factor of 1000 (represented as "struct integrety") causes immediate death ("implosion")
HOWEVER, that also means the compartment press hull damage starting at 204m, is "0" in 1 sec, dooming the boat. This side effect negates the possibly simulated implosion as unpractical.

The flooding after 204m I like, the pressure hull decay with it I dont like.
The added weight of flooded water should drag the boat down (if kept unchecked) to crushdepth.
In RL the pressure hull either holds or implodes...at ANY (unknown) time.

My 2 cents, really looking forward too Veckos work on RSD.

In the meantime, I gave my boat some slack by increasing crushdept and reducing dam points per sec. The advantage is minimal:
Basically the unchanged hull decay from 204m is stil there, meaning either immediate surface/repair or sure death if no prompt action taken.

Cheers, Trebb.

[vdr1981]

Hello again Trebby,

Crushdepth in cfg file is nothing more then depth for crash dive. You can test that and confirm easily...
Basically, all values from submarine cfg files are just values for UI commands,

Now, it looks like max depth value (cfg file) only define red mark on your depth gauge, if you use SH3 style for example. Because of TDW's claimes that this value has some effect to the depth when submarine starts to lose hull integrity, I really must to test this again.

Note that large confusion is created with that arcadish navigator ability to somehow increase max depth of the submarine which is totally nonsence IMO. If we get rid of that thins will become much more clear.

Yes, I used crush depth values for some compartments in zone.cfg (RSD)file with values something like 250-270 meters but it looks like this feature doesn't work as it should, probably because of dumb navigator ability again.

We can make submarine to implode suddenly on desired depth as it should, but to simulate "warning signs" will be more difficult. That's why i choose to leave in place gradual loose of hull integrity, to simulate those warning signs.

[vdr1981]

If you want to experiment with crush depths you should do the folowing...

Serach for all crush depth entries in zone.cfg (from RSD , category U-Boat items) and disable them like this...

[UbtEngineRoom]                          ;Pressure
Category=Engines Room
Multiplier=1.0
Flotability=90
HitPoints=50
Destructible=No
Armor Level=13
Critic Flotation=0.10
Critical=No
Effect1=#dc_bubbles, 10
FloodingTime=540
CargoType=None
;Crash Depth=250

Then , concentrate to submarine .zon file (SHcollision controller) using goblin editor where you will find setting for crush depth, overall HP settings for submarine and settings for speed of submarine HP degradation if critical depth is passed.
Note that your crush depth in game will be always much less then setings from zon file, probably because of the stupid navigator feature.

Also, you can use some extreme low or high values for max depth in submarine cfg file so we can determent correctly what this value actually do...

[trebby]

vdr1981 said:

"Serach for all crush depth entries in zone.cfg (from RSD , category U-Boat items) and disable them like this..."

1. Ehhh I have Steel Wolfes active, not RSD separately.
Where can I find zone.cfg from RSD in Steel Wolfes setup?
(tried Goblin and manual looking in subfile, no joy)

2. Crushdept in sub cfg is just crashdive depth: yes I conform too.
I made a misstake, I mean the effect of entry "max depth"...


3. I understand now. The navigator feature probably forces all entries to be divided by 0.8.
E.g. crushdepth VIIA around 250m : 0.8 = 312 edit value to get it.

4. This info is best:

Code:
[UbtEngineRoom] ;Pressure
Category=Engines Room
Multiplier=1.0
Flotability=90
HitPoints=50
Destructible=No
Armor Level=13
Critic Flotation=0.10
Critical=No
Effect1=#dc_bubbles, 10
FloodingTime=540
CargoType=None
;Crash Depth=250 :yess: 250m x 0.8 = 200m!

That is the too shallow depth where hull decay comes in...
As a quick and dirty fix, I will try to adjust that to: (just my best guess)

VIIA 250m = 312m.
VIIB 275m = 343m
VIIC 300m = 375m
VIIC/41 350m = 437m

(once I find it, see 1. )

Again, thanks for the guidance mate

[vdr1981]

Originally Posted by trebby

vdr1981 said:


1. Ehhh I have Steel Wolfes active, not RSD separately.
Where can I find zone.cfg from RSD in Steel Wolfes setup?
(tried Goblin and manual looking in subfile, no joy)

No problems with that, The Wolves of Steel use zone.cfg file from RSD...

But be careful with your experimenting, you'll manage probably to set instant crush depth to something like 290 meters, but what will happen then with others 250+ meters depths? We don't want to open possibility for U-Boat captains to exploit such extreme depths without any consequences, do we?

[trebby]

Yes, Pandora has shown me a glimpse inside...

Vecko said:

"But be careful with your experimenting, you'll manage probably to set instant crush depth to something like 290 meters, but what will happen then with others 250+ meters depths? We don't want to open possibility for U-Boat captains to exploit such extreme depths without any consequences, do we?"

Indeed. Realistic Skipper behaviour and suspense (of immenent damage/implosion) are valuable.

Some thoughts:
First problem I suppose is creating an acceptable sim behaviour based on WW2 reports ect.
(hard enough to get consensus anyway)

Then, in hindsight the boats were extremely well built, some real german engineering.... BUT the extend was largely unknown at the time.

Blair describes in his book how through time more and more boats lived to tell the tale about 200m plus escapades. So through scuttlebut the awareness of the ability to push the boats might have been raised, though never to its max survivable extend.(the 300m survivors being KIA/POWs)

Lastly:
Also, I noticed that the Bow torpedoroom, the radioroom and the elec eng room never suffer flooding on deep diving. Maybe worth considering?

Another thing that strikes me is that the ZONE.cfg seems general for all uboat types, therby negating most of the individual boat (ZON) characteristics.
On the whole an acceptable compromise I think.

I will do some private further tinkering eventough my work and the missus suffer from this strange modding fever I have gotten...
Thinking about making different versions to be activated depending on uboat type, and giving those "unflooddable" rooms some crushdepth.

Thanks again, Trebb.

[Blindside]

Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith

That's because the sh5.exe randomizes the crush depth. One of the factors in the randomization is the amount of hull damage the sub has. Even if their is no hull damage the exe will randomize the crush depth.

In the randomization of the crush depth would this remain based on the original depth or on any depth that has been altered?

[gap]

Following your discussion with interest, guys

Originally Posted by trebby

Thinking about making different versions to be activated depending on uboat type, and giving those "unflooddable" rooms some crushdepth.

That shouldn't be necessary: everything related with crash depths has separate settings for each u-boat, and even shared compartment zones can be made individual. Vecko already knows how to do it

[trebby]

Originally Posted by gap

Following your discussion with interest, guys



That shouldn't be necessary: everything related with crash depths has separate settings for each u-boat, and even shared compartment zones can be made individual. Vecko already knows how to do it

Aha,

I thought because the zone.CFG is in the sata file it was not type specific.
Obviously more is going on in the boat ZONs I suspect.

I really appreciate the work of the modders even more after having this little excursion into the games inners.
There is a strange addictive "lets see what this change does just oooone more time and then I start working" thing about it....

Anyway, by tinkering some more I can at least dive to 240-250m without serious damage in a VIIC. Thats fine for me until Vecko gets a new TGW version out.

Cheers, Trebb.

[trebby]

Originally Posted by Blindside

In the randomization of the crush depth would this remain based on the original depth or on any depth that has been altered?

Blindside, if you mean with original depth the depth as per vanilla, I would say that any randomization will be based on the new, modded, depth.

So far, I found any variations made by SH5exe hardly noticeable.

Final word by TDW...

Trebb.