The twenty dollar Big Mac

[August]

I think the point is that McDonalds type jobs are poor replacements for the high paying manufacturing jobs that have gone overseas.

When I was a youngster you either went to college (if you could afford it and had the smarts for it) or you went down to the local factory and applied for a job that you could hold onto for your entire working life without having to learn all that much or really compete to get. One that paid enough to put your kids through college. Perfect for the HS graduate with no great passion for a particular line of work.

But those days are gone now and all that is left for those folks, and there are many, many of them, is low paying service sector jobs that don't offer a living wage.

[AVGWarhawk]

I still do not see a issue. How is asking for a raise a just and reasonable request? Hair and metal hanging out of employees noses, eyebrows and lips mean very little these day. I see it all the time.

[the_tyrant]

The level of automation that goes on in a fast food kitchen nowadays is baffling.

I would actually predict that in the next 10 years or so, MacDonald's would probably shed 50% of their workforce that works in the restaurants.

[CaptainHaplo]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Captianhaplo:
I agree on the retirees and HS kids for fast food joint. But, a BS is required by most jobs that pay muster. It does not matter what the BS is for. I have a BS in Criminal Justice. I work in transportation. It is not always about a field of high demand however, law enforcement, medicine and education are a few fields in demand. Art History not so much.

I work in IT. I have been in the field for a little over 20 years now in one way or the other. I don't have a degree at all. I took a training and skill that was somewhat related, rolled it into a helpdesk job. Today, am the primary IT guy for half a state with a major financial institution - without a degree. You want something, you work for it and get it. You use the skills you have to the best of your ability.

Originally Posted by Feuer Frei!

A request for a pay increase. A perfectly just and reasonable request.

Based on what? Their value to the company, or their personal sense of value? Because they are not worth $15 an hour to the company.

What is also an issue is that some people think these are 'special snowflakes' who should maybe just put up and shut up and deal with the crappy minimum wage, or, if they don't like it, get a haircut and get a real job.

And why is that an issue? No one made them take that job. They are offered ways to improve themselves by moving into management - but instead of doing so they are simply out in the street demanding more - instead of behind the counter doing what they are paid to do.

Its a "give me" attitude they are displaying based on their own individual actions, instead of working hard to earn more. Guess what - the American Dream is about success through struggle - not a nice fat paycheck "just because".

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by August

I think the point is that McDonalds type jobs are poor replacements for the high paying manufacturing jobs that have gone overseas.

Point taken. The manufacturer moved overseas for what reason?

[Wolferz]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Point taken. The manufacturer moved overseas for what reason?

Because the federal government turned the business environment into a red tape mine field? Well, that and employees expecting a living wage. The gall of some people!

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Wolferz

Because the federal government turned the business environment into a red tape mine field? Well, that and employees expecting a living wage. The gall of some people!

Can we attribute some of this to say...unions? A living wage? What constitutes a living wage? Do all employers offer living wage? If someone expects a living wage perhaps working towards one is the suggested? I used my gall.

[Feuer Frei!]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

I still do not see a issue. How is asking for a raise a just and reasonable request?

CPI Increases, inflation, award rates reviews, outdated contracts, job performance is above average, customer feedback, increased profits, outdated workplace agreements, and the list goes on.

Hair and metal hanging out of employees noses, eyebrows and lips mean very little these day. I see it all the time.

Pardon? What has that got to do with reviewing wages or pay rates? If we are talking about grooming standards at the McDonald's that is mentioned in the article then we would need to see their grooming standards outlined in the employee's handbook. If it is not listed in their handbook that piercings, earrings or untrimmed hair, when serving food is not mentioned as being against the grooming standards, then your comment would be considered discrimitory.
Aperson's skill set is not judged by their piercings or hair, but by how they perform their tasks.

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

I work in IT. I have been in the field for a little over 20 years now in one way or the other. I don't have a degree at all. I took a training and skill that was somewhat related, rolled it into a helpdesk job. Today, am the primary IT guy for half a state with a major financial institution - without a degree. You want something, you work for it and get it. You use the skills you have to the best of your ability.

Sure, and?
So you are saying that the low-lives should man up and get a real job.
We are back at square one again.
I think that not all is as it seems. Do we really assume that people who are in low-paid service industries are there because they want to be? All of them? Are they there because they want to be? All of them? There may be a raft of reasons why a person works for Maccas. Not all of them are as clear cut as we like think.

Based on what? Their value to the company, or their personal sense of value? Because they are not worth $15 an hour to the company.

See my above comment in reply to AVGWarhawk.
Because they are not worth $15 an hour. Is that your personal belief? How do you know? Do you know what's in their contract or workplace agreement? Do you know what that person or persons that work at the particular store mentioned in the article performance is like? Are you their superior who does performance reviews on them? Are you the person that sets out the award rates for people that work for McDonald's? No?
Ok.

And why is that an issue? No one made them take that job. They are offered ways to improve themselves by moving into management - but instead of doing so they are simply out in the street demanding more - instead of behind the counter doing what they are paid to do.

No no-one has made them take it. That's not my issue. Nor is it anyone else's.
Offered management positions? Well then, obviously they can't be that bad then, to be offered management positions they must have above average performance levels then. And to boot, must be worth more than the $8.72 per hour that is currently offered to them. No?
Also, we are assuming again that every person is able to take on a management position and in turn accept the responsibilities that come with a management position, ie longer hours, more stress, more liability, less time with family, less time to see the specialist or go to the oncologist becaause they need to follow up on their cancer treatment results. Or less time for their chemo or radiation treatments. Or their drug rehab meetings. Or God knows what else might be could be a catalist for these people not accepting the management role.
However does that in your eyes exclude them from a wage increase due for reasons i already mentioned above? I f you say yes, then i'm disappointed.

Its a "give me" attitude they are displaying based on their own individual actions, instead of working hard to earn more. Guess what - the American Dream is about success through struggle - not a nice fat paycheck "just because".

Funny that, i don't get any 'give me' attitude at all from these people. The only sense i'm getting is that it's dam tough to put food on the table for $8.72 per hour. Or dam tough to feed the kids. Or dam tough to provide for loved ones.
Next we move onto your 'fat paycheck'. Laughable. A fat paycheck is what? $15 per hour?
You have to be kidding me right?

[HundertzehnGustav]

And why is that an issue? No one made them take that job. They are offered ways to improve themselves by moving into management - but instead of doing so they are simply out in the street demanding more - instead of behind the counter doing what they are paid to do.

but the work environment made them do take the job. they had no other choice! The world is evil!

But now they want that job to feed them so well that they can keep going there and keep getting paid for it there and live on that job forever.

quite a contradiction.

i know a "dead-end" job when i see one. turned down two positions because they would get me nowhere teach me nothing and stuff.

[AVGWarhawk]

Feuer Fri:

CPI Increases, inflation, award rates reviews, outdated contracts, job performance is above average, customer feedback, increased profits, outdated workplace agreements, and the list goes on.

What is a CPI increase? Inflation is felt by the company that employs people. Not just employees. Award rates reviews? Just what is that? A review on performance? Well, if the performance sucks how can the company justify a raise to the employee? Increased profits. See inflation. Outdated contracts. Since when did minimum wage employees sign a contract? Out dated workplace agreements? Must be something new. Just what agreements do minimum wage employees agree on? The list goes on? The bottom line for most employees is performance. You don't perform you are not awarded a increase in pay.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Feuer Frei!

Do we really assume that people who are in low-paid service industries are there because they want to be? All of them? Are they there because they want to be? All of them? There may be a raft of reasons why a person works for Maccas. Not all of them are as clear cut as we like think.

I would say it's just the opposite - no one wants to work in fast food. The people who do either aren't qualified to do anything else, or are doing it until an opportunity opens up in their chosen field. The problem is that if prices go up to cover such a raise, people will stop eating there. The people demanding this kind of raise will be the first to go.

Because they are not worth $15 an hour. Is that your personal belief? How do you know? Do you know what's in their contract or workplace agreement? Do you know what that person or persons that work at the particular store mentioned in the article performance is like? Are you their superior who does performance reviews on them? Are you the person that sets out the award rates for people that work for McDonald's? No?
OK.

Are you? From the article it seems to be the belief of the people who are in those positions, and they said so. This means that you are the one on the outside trying to tell them what they should do, not the other way around.

Offered management positions? Well then, obviously they can't be that bad then, to be offered management positions they must have above average performance levels then. And to boot, must be worth more than the $8.72 per hour that is currently offered to them. No?

Yes, the people qualified for those management positions are worth the extra money. You seem to be of the opinion that people not qualified for better positions should get the extra money anyway. Raises go to people who earn them.

However does that in your eyes exclude them from a wage increase due for reasons i already mentioned above? I f you say yes, then i'm disappointed.

You've mentioned a wage increase several times. Maybe you haven't noticed that these entry-level workers aren't asking for an increase. They're asking that the starting wage be doubled. No company can afford to do that.

Funny that, i don't get any 'give me' attitude at all from these people. The only sense i'm getting is that it's dam tough to put food on the table for $8.72 per hour. Or dam tough to feed the kids. Or dam tough to provide for loved ones.

Yes it is. The correct answer is to learn new skills that are worth more money. Employers pay what the service is worth, not what you or anyone else says they should.

Next we move onto your 'fat paycheck'. Laughable. A fat paycheck is what? $15 per hour?
You have to be kidding me right?

Actually that is an outstanding wage for someone with minimal or no job skill. I don't know what world you live in, but I would jump on a job that paid that much. Of course I know people my age who make ten times that or more, but they have a lifetime of service behind them and are actually worth that to their employers.

Again, you get paid what you're worth, not what you demand.

[the_tyrant]

Is an hour of work by the guy flipping burgers at Macdonalds worth any more than minimum wage? Nope, burger flipping is the classic minimum wage job.

Can you support a familly by working as a burger flipper? Nope, you will need more than that.


The debate can go on for hours, which is why i think August here has the right idea:

I think the point is that McDonalds type jobs are poor replacements for the high paying manufacturing jobs that have gone overseas.

When I was a youngster you either went to college (if you could afford it and had the smarts for it) or you went down to the local factory and applied for a job that you could hold onto for your entire working life without having to learn all that much or really compete to get. One that paid enough to put your kids through college. Perfect for the HS graduate with no great passion for a particular line of work.

But those days are gone now and all that is left for those folks, and there are many, many of them, is low paying service sector jobs that don't offer a living wage.

But lets be honest here, those jobs are never coming back, not when I can find a university grad, company man, who is willing to work for 3$/hour, who is very competant, and takes pride in his work in Asia.

[mookiemookie]

Regardless of your opinion of the merits of their demands in this particular situation, there are some hard questions and issues that are raised here that the country is going to have to deal with at some point.

There is an ever increasing numbers of lower wage workers that are providing the basic labor and services that keep society going. When this group is unable to find jobs that pay them a living wage, there's going to be a day when they realize that there's strength in numbers. And if they can't get what they want at the negotiating table, they're going to try getting it by force.

You can point fingers and assign blame all you like, but the plain fact of the matter is: get enough people in one place who cannot afford to feed themselves, and violence will happen. To borrow a phrase from GWX: "It has happened before. It will happen again."

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

And if they can't get what they want at the negotiating table, they're going to try getting it by force.

What the....? So we don't get what we want we will take it by force? String up the company owner?

Perhaps we the people will notice that manufacturing jobs that went overseas has caused a problem. Incentives to bring them back might be a good idea. Then again.....

Did You Know...

Manufacturing in the United States produces $1.8 trillion of value each year, or 12.2 percent of U.S. GDP. For every $1.00 spent in manufacturing, another $1.48 is added to the economy, the highest multiplier effect of any economic sector.1
Manufacturing supports an estimated 17.2 million jobs in the United States—about one in six private-sector jobs. Nearly 12 million Americans (or 9 percent of the workforce) are employed directly in manufacturing.2
In 2011, the average manufacturing worker in the United States earned $77,060 annually, including pay and benefits. The average worker in all industries earned $60,168.3
Manufacturers in the United States are the most productive in the world, far surpassing the worker productivity of any other major manufacturing economy, leading to higher wages and living standards.4
Manufacturers in the United States perform two-thirds of all private-sector R&D in the nation, driving more innovation than any other sector.5
Taken alone, manufacturing in the United States would be the 10th largest economy in the world.6

http://www.nam.org/Statistics-And-Da...g/Landing.aspx

[August]

Originally Posted by the_tyrant

But lets be honest here, those jobs are never coming back, not when I can find a university grad, company man, who is willing to work for 3$/hour, who is very competant, and takes pride in his work in Asia.

You're right but so is Mookie. We need to find some means to replace the jobs we've lost with something equivalent or we risk destroying our way of life.