For those who care about Russian lies and history - Page 2

CCIP · 11-02-12, 06:03 AM

And as far as deaths of leaders go, if everything is so open and transparent in the USA, why is there still such a huge number of conspiracy theories around JFK? No Soviet leader's death is surrounded with the amount of mystery, red tape, and sealed files than JFK's. That's not to suggest that I believe in the conspiracy theories, but the history of that one is anything but straightforward, transparent and open.

Sailor Steve · 11-02-12, 07:48 AM

I didn't say everything here is "open and transparent". Far from it. There is the chance that the Warren Commission lied, and all those theorists are trying to find the truth. There is the chance that the Warren Commision report is spot on, and the conspiracy guys are all nuts. In either case my point is that all those people can openly question the 'Official' reports without fear of reprisals. Of course the conspiracy guys will tell you that many people involved died "mysteriously", but they still get to say it, and they do.

Soviet Union? Have you ever heard of this book?
http://www.amazon.com/The-Commissar-.../dp/0805052941

I own a copy and it's...interesting, to say the least.

CCIP · 11-02-12, 08:06 AM

Oh no, I'm not arguing about that at all. Of course the level of covering-up that happened in the USSR is downright disturbing, and Putin isn't exactly a gift from heaven. Just pointing out that lying and murky business around state leaders is not really a Russian trait, and the very title of this thread irks me for that reason. Russian history is not made up of lies, and quite the opposite - in some regard, we know more 'truth' about Russian history than we do about many other places', with the benefit of hindsight on the fallen Soviet era that doesn't require romanticization and is, at least outside of Russia, largely de-politicized now when it comes to historical studies. It's a tragedy that the opening of the Soviet archives was so short-lived in the 90s, but even for the brief time that those were open, an unprecedented amount of historical evidence emerged. By comparison, much Western documentary history from the Cold War era is still locked away in intelligence agencies' vaults. So, even in respect to the brave Russian historians who delved into Soviet archives before they were locked away again, "Russian lies and Russian history" just strikes me as unfair to say the least, as does the notion that somehow Western history is more open. In some ways the reverse is true. Give credit where it's due, etc.

Sailor Steve · 11-02-12, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCIP

Just pointing out that lying and murky business around state leaders is not really a Russian trait, and the very title of this thread irks me for that reason.

Got that right!

Quote:

"Russian lies and Russian history" just strikes me as unfair to say the least, as does the notion that somehow Western history is more open. In some ways the reverse is true. Give credit where it's due, etc.

In that I have to agree.

11-02-12, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

Russia lies to everyone?

What makes Russia so different to any other country in that respect.

Nice article though.

so true. A thief will steal all you have but a liar will watch you hang.

geetrue · 11-02-12, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCIP

Just pointing out that lying and murky business around state leaders is not really a Russian trait, and the very title of this thread irks me for that reason. Russian history is not made up of lies, and quite the opposite - in some regard, we know more 'truth' about Russian history than we do about many other places', with the benefit of hindsight on the fallen Soviet era that doesn't require romanticization and is, at least outside of Russia, largely de-politicized now when it comes to historical studies. It's a tragedy that the opening of the Soviet archives was so short-lived in the 90s, but even for the brief time that those were open, an unprecedented amount of historical evidence emerged. By comparison, much Western documentary history from the Cold War era is still locked away in intelligence agencies' vaults. So, even in respect to the brave Russian historians who delved into Soviet archives before they were locked away again, "Russian lies and Russian history" just strikes me as unfair to say the least, as does the notion that somehow Western history is more open. In some ways the reverse is true. Give credit where it's due, etc.

I was not aware that Russia had opened up it's archives to tell the truth for I spent my twenties on an FBM submarine with history books full of horrible things Russia had done after WWII. Mostly Stalin of course and most of my views are before the wall fell in 89 I think.

So I apoligize for being old and too stubborn to think that they have started to tell it's citzens the truth.

https://www.cia.gov/index.html

https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...ook/index.html

Quote:

The World Factbook provides information on the history, people, government, economy, geography, communications, transportation, military, and transnational issues for 267 world entities. Our Reference tab includes: maps of the major world regions, as well as Flags of the World, a Physical Map of the World, a Political Map of the World, a World Oceans map, and a Standard Time Zones of the World map.

Show me the link to KGB facts ...

You may have grown up there, true and think they told you the truth, but did they tell your parents the truth? I doubt it ... I do not mean that in a meanful spirit.

USA has President Johnson's lies of two North Vietnam patrol boats attacking the poor DE Turner Joy, which never happened resulting in 58,000 men and women losing their lives.

Just to point out a USA mistake, but we can at least argue the point online in this country.

Hottentot · 11-02-12, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geetrue

Show me the link to KGB facts ...

You do realize that KGB hasn't existed in two decades, don't you?

As Steve has put it to a certain other member many times: it's not what you say, it's how you say it.

geetrue · 11-02-12, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hottentot

You do realize that KGB hasn't existed in two decades, don't you?

No, as a matter of fact I didn't know that ... now I have to read up all of the new rubbish the FSS will spew out, but as I have learned on our own news stations of ABC, CBS and NBC and Fox news to wait for the the third and fourth story on anything lol

Federal Security Service (Russia) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Security_Service_(Russia)

Common name: Federal Security ... Initial reorganization of the KGB. ... lead to committing crimes and arrest people for 15 days if they fail to comply …

Red Brow · 11-10-12, 08:05 PM

Unlike MIT during our recent election. at least the Russian leaders haven't changed all that much since Ivan The Terrible.

Sailor Steve · 11-11-12, 03:12 AM

Was Massachussetts Institute of Technology involved in the election in some way I missed?

Anyway, WELCOME ABOARD!

STEED · 11-11-12, 07:06 AM

All our leaders lie and its our job to question everything they say, the day we stop will be the day they win.

Catfish · 11-11-12, 08:10 AM

Lies and history

http://originaldialogue.blogspot.de/...-on-earth.html

Sailor Steve · 11-11-12, 10:41 AM

Interesting article, and I'd like to read the book. It seems to be mostly tongue-in-cheek, and looks like fun. It was also written by a Brit, which points out one of Britain's good points - the willingness to point out their own foibles and make fun of themselves.

Oberon · 11-11-12, 12:50 PM

That's a...

That's a pretty impressive list...

I mean, I knew we got about but...well...good lord!

Hene · 11-11-12, 01:50 PM

Can't read the link

. Must be the Great Firewall. I'm seriously thinking about cancelling the rest of my exchange year and going back to Finland. Although if I keep complaining like I'm probably gonna get thrown out. Russia really is nothing compared to China. You have the government censoring the internet and writing anything that criticizes the communist party or doesn't fit the official history will get you trouble, labor camp if your unlucky. The history is modified to make china seem superior and anything suspicious is left out. You probably wont find any mention about tiananmen square. Most Chinese probably don't even know about it.

Lets see how long it takes for the police to come through my door.

11-02-12, 06:03 AM	#16
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	And as far as deaths of leaders go, if everything is so open and transparent in the USA, why is there still such a huge number of conspiracy theories around JFK? No Soviet leader's death is surrounded with the amount of mystery, red tape, and sealed files than JFK's. That's not to suggest that I believe in the conspiracy theories, but the history of that one is anything but straightforward, transparent and open. __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

11-02-12, 07:48 AM	#17
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	I didn't say everything here is "open and transparent". Far from it. There is the chance that the Warren Commission lied, and all those theorists are trying to find the truth. There is the chance that the Warren Commision report is spot on, and the conspiracy guys are all nuts. In either case my point is that all those people can openly question the 'Official' reports without fear of reprisals. Of course the conspiracy guys will tell you that many people involved died "mysteriously", but they still get to say it, and they do. Soviet Union? Have you ever heard of this book? http://www.amazon.com/The-Commissar-.../dp/0805052941 I own a copy and it's...interesting, to say the least. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

11-02-12, 08:06 AM	#18
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	Oh no, I'm not arguing about that at all. Of course the level of covering-up that happened in the USSR is downright disturbing, and Putin isn't exactly a gift from heaven. Just pointing out that lying and murky business around state leaders is not really a Russian trait, and the very title of this thread irks me for that reason. Russian history is not made up of lies, and quite the opposite - in some regard, we know more 'truth' about Russian history than we do about many other places', with the benefit of hindsight on the fallen Soviet era that doesn't require romanticization and is, at least outside of Russia, largely de-politicized now when it comes to historical studies. It's a tragedy that the opening of the Soviet archives was so short-lived in the 90s, but even for the brief time that those were open, an unprecedented amount of historical evidence emerged. By comparison, much Western documentary history from the Cold War era is still locked away in intelligence agencies' vaults. So, even in respect to the brave Russian historians who delved into Soviet archives before they were locked away again, "Russian lies and Russian history" just strikes me as unfair to say the least, as does the notion that somehow Western history is more open. In some ways the reverse is true. Give credit where it's due, etc. __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart) Last edited by CCIP; 11-02-12 at 08:32 AM.

11-10-12, 08:05 PM	#24
Red Brow A-ganger Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Colorado Posts: 72 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Unlike MIT at least Unlike MIT during our recent election. at least the Russian leaders haven't changed all that much since Ivan The Terrible.

11-11-12, 03:12 AM	#25
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	Was Massachussetts Institute of Technology involved in the election in some way I missed? Anyway, WELCOME ABOARD! __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

11-11-12, 07:06 AM	#26
STEED Lucky Jack Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Down Town UK Posts: 27,695 Downloads: 89 Uploads: 48	All our leaders lie and its our job to question everything they say, the day we stop will be the day they win. __________________ Dr Who rest in peace 1963-2017. To borrow Davros saying...I NAME YOU CHIBNALL THE DESTROYER OF DR WHO YOU KILLED IT!

11-11-12, 08:10 AM	#27
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,766 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	Lies and history http://originaldialogue.blogspot.de/...-on-earth.html

11-11-12, 10:41 AM	#28
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	Interesting article, and I'd like to read the book. It seems to be mostly tongue-in-cheek, and looks like fun. It was also written by a Brit, which points out one of Britain's good points - the willingness to point out their own foibles and make fun of themselves. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

11-11-12, 12:50 PM	#29
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	That's a... That's a pretty impressive list... I mean, I knew we got about but...well...good lord!

11-11-12, 01:50 PM	#30
Hene Watch Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Finland Posts: 15 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 0	Can't read the link. Must be the Great Firewall. I'm seriously thinking about cancelling the rest of my exchange year and going back to Finland. Although if I keep complaining like I'm probably gonna get thrown out. Russia really is nothing compared to China. You have the government censoring the internet and writing anything that criticizes the communist party or doesn't fit the official history will get you trouble, labor camp if your unlucky. The history is modified to make china seem superior and anything suspicious is left out. You probably wont find any mention about tiananmen square. Most Chinese probably don't even know about it. Lets see how long it takes for the police to come through my door.