Russia to Shift to Mostly Volunteer Army - Page 2

CCIP · 07-09-11, 12:10 AM

I think you do have to take into account the history of Russians after the revolution, too. The damage done by the Civil War, Stalin's Purges, and WWII, the Cold War years, the painful dissolution of the USSR and the social collapse of the 1990s is something that still reverberates today and is difficult for Russians to get over. The collective psyche of Russians is too damaged by all that to even begin of thinking of revolt for the sake of freedom, fairness and national progress - food, shelter, and something definite to look forward to tomorrow is already big progress for them. The support for Putin & co. in Russia is genuine, because it brings a sense of stability. It only helps, of course, that the vast majority live in poverty and in that 'survival mode' even some sense of stability looks like a blessing. For any sort of uprising or reform, you're not gonna motivate anyone with just promises of freedom and fairness. The only things that will do that are either economic and social improvement for the impoverished majority that'll get their minds out of 'survival mode', or another total collapse. Neither looks very likely, and the current regime isn't really interested in either.

Things look somewhat better for the military, but corruption gets in the way and public opinion seems to be sitting around the two extremes - either it's total professionalization, or 'keep it the way it is'. While it stays polarized like that, it's much easier for the authorities to drag their feet. Russia definitely has the ability to take a middle path and modernize the conscripted army, but sadly the resources keep getting siphoned off by the bureaucracy and brass. The culture in the high-ranking powerful core and the 'power ministries' is still as poisonous as it was, in part because the military is still run by more or less the same people that ran it 20 years ago in the USSR.

So right now I don't think there's much of anything that will realistically happen. It's just sit and wait for economic improvement or another collapse to weaken the current regime's license to stick to the status quo (which a majority of Russians would rather they do at the moment), and wait until the Soviet brass starts dying off, with newer generations of officers hopefully being a little more forward-thinking.

Krauter · 07-09-11, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCIP

I think you do have to take into account the history of Russians after the revolution, too. The damage done by the Civil War, Stalin's Purges, and WWII, the Cold War years, the painful dissolution of the USSR and the social collapse of the 1990s is something that still reverberates today and is difficult for Russians to get over. The collective psyche of Russians is too damaged by all that to even begin of thinking of revolt for the sake of freedom, fairness and national progress - food, shelter, and something definite to look forward to tomorrow is already big progress for them. The support for Putin & co. in Russia is genuine, because it brings a sense of stability. It only helps, of course, that the vast majority live in poverty and in that 'survival mode' even some sense of stability looks like a blessing. For any sort of uprising or reform, you're not gonna motivate anyone with just promises of freedom and fairness. The only things that will do that are either economic and social improvement for the impoverished majority that'll get their minds out of 'survival mode', or another total collapse. Neither looks very likely, and the current regime isn't really interested in either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCIP

...wait until the Soviet brass starts dying off, with newer generations of officers hopefully being a little more forward-thinking.

These two points are pretty spot on if I can say so myself.

Stealhead · 07-09-11, 12:28 AM

Yeah I can see that there are still lots of "old guard" still around.Also I know a lot of former Soviet citizens that just decided to simply leave and live some place that already is better. I dont know much what most former Russians think most people I know are truly Ukrainians like my in-laws so I figure they might have differing opinions than ex Soviet Russians do.

I have a good friend who is an intel officer with the Air Force and his is pretty hard core into his job he will for sure go very far in the CIA if works for them in place of a full officer career.He told me that there are some younger advisers to Putin/Medy that have the modernize and head away from the old system way of thinking but still gaining power and spreading influence and other old guys that support mainly staying with the old system and spreading power and influence in most respects Both are not really good for regular Russians if they listen to the younger thinkers though they will gain much more economic power and therefore control which is bad long term for western interests either way they will be dealing with China though which is honestly more than even the US will be able to handle much less the Russians.

CCIP · 07-09-11, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealhead

Yeah I can see that there are still lots of "old guard" still around.Also I know a lot of former Soviet citizens that just decided to simply leave and live some place that already is better. I dont know much what most former Russians think most people I know are truly Ukrainians like my in-laws so I figure they might have differing opinions than ex Soviet Russians do.

On some issues, I think there'd be differences, but on this particular issue most former/present Ukrainians I know would agree with the Russians. A large portion of my family's friends are from the Ukraine and I think their impressions would agree with mine.

Meanwhile this whole discussion reminded me of this classic song. Almost 30 years old, but may as well be about this whole thing we're talking about today

Quote:

Originally Posted by translated lyrics from Russian

Akvarium - Train On Fire

Colonel Vasin arrived at the front with his young wife
Colonel Vasin called up his regiment and told them "let's go home"
We've been fighting this war for 70 years, they taught us that life is a battle
But according to new intelligence, we've been fighting ourselves all along

I've seen the generals, they drink and eat our death
Their children are going mad from the fact they have nothing else left to want
And the land lies in rust, churches are mixed up with ashes
So if we want to have somewhere to return to, it's time to return home

This train is on fire, and there's no brakes left to hit
This train is on fire, and we can't run anywhere
This land was ours, until we got bogged down in struggle
It will die if it remains noone's - time to reclaim this land for ourselves

And all around torches burn, it's an assembly of all fallen units
And the people who shot at our fathers make plans for our children
We were birthed to the sounds of a march and they scared us with prison
But time to stop crawling on our belly - we're already back home

So as far as 'encouraging people to rise up', it's been said in the clearest of voices for years. Shame noone's been really listening all this time.

07-09-11, 12:10 AM	#16
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	I think you do have to take into account the history of Russians after the revolution, too. The damage done by the Civil War, Stalin's Purges, and WWII, the Cold War years, the painful dissolution of the USSR and the social collapse of the 1990s is something that still reverberates today and is difficult for Russians to get over. The collective psyche of Russians is too damaged by all that to even begin of thinking of revolt for the sake of freedom, fairness and national progress - food, shelter, and something definite to look forward to tomorrow is already big progress for them. The support for Putin & co. in Russia is genuine, because it brings a sense of stability. It only helps, of course, that the vast majority live in poverty and in that 'survival mode' even some sense of stability looks like a blessing. For any sort of uprising or reform, you're not gonna motivate anyone with just promises of freedom and fairness. The only things that will do that are either economic and social improvement for the impoverished majority that'll get their minds out of 'survival mode', or another total collapse. Neither looks very likely, and the current regime isn't really interested in either. Things look somewhat better for the military, but corruption gets in the way and public opinion seems to be sitting around the two extremes - either it's total professionalization, or 'keep it the way it is'. While it stays polarized like that, it's much easier for the authorities to drag their feet. Russia definitely has the ability to take a middle path and modernize the conscripted army, but sadly the resources keep getting siphoned off by the bureaucracy and brass. The culture in the high-ranking powerful core and the 'power ministries' is still as poisonous as it was, in part because the military is still run by more or less the same people that ran it 20 years ago in the USSR. So right now I don't think there's much of anything that will realistically happen. It's just sit and wait for economic improvement or another collapse to weaken the current regime's license to stick to the status quo (which a majority of Russians would rather they do at the moment), and wait until the Soviet brass starts dying off, with newer generations of officers hopefully being a little more forward-thinking. __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

07-09-11, 12:28 AM	#18
Stealhead Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,421 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	Yeah I can see that there are still lots of "old guard" still around.Also I know a lot of former Soviet citizens that just decided to simply leave and live some place that already is better. I dont know much what most former Russians think most people I know are truly Ukrainians like my in-laws so I figure they might have differing opinions than ex Soviet Russians do. I have a good friend who is an intel officer with the Air Force and his is pretty hard core into his job he will for sure go very far in the CIA if works for them in place of a full officer career.He told me that there are some younger advisers to Putin/Medy that have the modernize and head away from the old system way of thinking but still gaining power and spreading influence and other old guys that support mainly staying with the old system and spreading power and influence in most respects Both are not really good for regular Russians if they listen to the younger thinkers though they will gain much more economic power and therefore control which is bad long term for western interests either way they will be dealing with China though which is honestly more than even the US will be able to handle much less the Russians. Last edited by Stealhead; 07-09-11 at 12:38 AM.