Son of Pilot Who Dropped A-Bomb Opposes, - Page 2

tater · 08-05-10, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Remember this. Every Purple Heart awarded since the end of WWII to the present day (Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan and other conficts) all were minted for Operation Downfall the Allied invasion of Japan.

500,000 were made. 120,000 are still in stock.

500k would not have been enough I fear.

Then there is the standing jap order to murder all POWs upon invasion. Note that in September, this would have resulted in the murder of all POWs in the CBI when the brits would have invaded Malaya. The death toll just from already ordered POW murders would have exceeded the death toll of BOTH a-bombs.

tater · 08-05-10, 08:48 AM

I've met his grandson (he's a B-2 pilot), as well as General Tibbets himself. His son is right.

The japanese should thank us for the a-bombs, they saved countless JAPANESE lives.

Some goon asked General Tibbets if he had visited the Hiroshima Memorial when I saw him give a talk. He said "I've only been to Hiroshima the one time, and I didn't stop."

Everyone laughed except the hippie.

AngusJS · 08-05-10, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

Some goon asked General Tibbets if he had visited the Hiroshima Memorial when I saw him give a talk. He said "I've only been to Hiroshima the one time, and I didn't stop."

Everyone laughed except the hippie.

Killing 80,000 people, most of whom are civilians, can be fun!

tater · 08-05-10, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AngusJS

Killing 80,000 people, most of whom are civilians, can be fun!

Actually, technically very few were civilians. By Imperial Edict, all "men" between the ages of 15 and 65 were already officially conscripted, as were all females 17-47.

So the only civilians were boys under 15, girls under 17, men over 65, and women over 47.

Raptor1 · 08-05-10, 09:00 AM

Not...this...time...

Ah, whatever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by goldorak

Can I say what b-u-l-l-s-h-i-t ?

The drop of the 2 bombs were justified only from an economical standpoint (remember how much money the Manhattan project cost the US taxpayers ? ) a ROI if you want for the military industrial complex; and as an act of leverage against the Soviets.
All the talk about the bombing being necessary because it would have saved lives etc... is only that. Talk without substance. If the bombs were not dropped the US would have invaded Japan at the earliest by the end of 1945, and it was well known that the japanese government wanted to end the war by the time the Potsdam conference was in effect. Truman and Stalin deliberately decided to ignore the Japanese message.

The drop of the 2 bombs effectively ended the war. The reason for using them (propaganda aside, the evergreen motto "to save lives") on the other hand has nothing to do with saving lives. And history, and historical documents show this very clearly.

What messages were they ignoring? The Japanese government had no intention to unconditionally surrender at this point, they rather would have accepted an end to the war with some outrageous demands that included no occupation, conducting their own war crimes trials by themselves, disarming the IJN by themselves and other such blatant nonsense.

And wouldn't it have saved lives? Take a look at the buildup of forces on both sides and the estimated casualties for Operation Downfall; it's quite clear that dropping the atomic bombs would have been much preferable to an invasion on both sides.

mookiemookie · 08-05-10, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor1

And wouldn't it have saved lives? Take a look at the buildup of forces on both sides and the estimated casualties for Operation Downfall; it's quite clear that dropping the atomic bombs would have been much preferable to an invasion on both sides.

10-15,000 planes held in reserve for kamikaze attacks. Massed forces on the southern end of Kyushu. Aviation fuel, ammo stockpiled. Doesn't sound like "about to surrender" to me.

Oberon · 08-05-10, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor1

Not...this...time...

Ah, whatever.

Bad Raptor!

tater · 08-05-10, 02:35 PM

That Japan wanted to end the war is utter nonsense.

That old claim is based on one intercepted message from a diplomat back to Tokyo where he said they should accept. The reply—which was in a code that did not have intercepts declassified until 1996—was an unambiguous "NO." It added that the plan was to bleed the US white on the beaches, THEN sue for peace with the US body count as a negotiating point.

The a-bombs without question saved lives.

Again, all POWs and detainees (civilians) would have been executed in September. Not to mention the fact that Hiroshima and Nagasaki would have simply been firebombed had they not been nuked. The 2d Tokyo fire bomb raid killed more than EITHER a-bomb.

One of the best books dealing with the way the war ended (nitty gritty details from inside the Imperial Palace and IGHQ) is Richard Frank's excellent book, Downfall.

August · 08-05-10, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goldorak

...and it was well known that the japanese government wanted to end the war by the time the Potsdam conference was in effect.

Says you. IIRC that there was at least one coup attempt by Imperial Army officers to stop the surrender.

In any case how many Tokyo style firebombing raids do you think would have been mounted before the war actually ended if it had been allowed to run it's course?

You may not like it but those atomic bombs did save lives on both sides.

mookiemookie · 08-05-10, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

Says you. IIRC that there was at least one coup attempt by Imperial Army officers to stop the surrender.

In any case how many Tokyo style firebombing raids do you think would have been mounted before the war actually ended if it had been allowed to run it's course?

You may not like it but those atomic bombs did save lives on both sides.

Mark it on your calendars, folks. August and I agree on something.

Oberon · 08-05-10, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Mark it on your calendars, folks. August and I agree on something.

frau kaleun · 08-05-10, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Mark it on your calendars, folks. August and I agree on something.

ETR3(SS) · 08-05-10, 10:11 AM

So when can we expect that apology from Japan about Pearl Harbor? You know the one that they were going to give on the 50th anniversary of the attack but changed their minds on at the last minute. I mean if we can say sorry for vaporizing thousands of people in a millisecond they can surely say sorry for killing thousands over a couple of hours.

GoldenRivet · 08-05-10, 10:12 AM

if they apologize for Pearl

i think we can apologize for the A-bombs

i also hold the opinion that the US Military was justified in its use of the weapon.

August · 08-05-10, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Mark it on your calendars, folks. August and I agree on something.

It's not the first time that's happened you Drama Queen!

08-05-10, 10:11 AM	#13
ETR3(SS) Ocean Warrior Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Between test depth and periscope depth Posts: 3,021 Downloads: 175 Uploads: 16	So when can we expect that apology from Japan about Pearl Harbor? You know the one that they were going to give on the 50th anniversary of the attack but changed their minds on at the last minute. I mean if we can say sorry for vaporizing thousands of people in a millisecond they can surely say sorry for killing thousands over a couple of hours. __________________ USS Kentucky SSBN 737 (G) Comms Div 2003-2006 Qualified 19 November 03 Yes I was really on a submarine.

08-05-10, 10:12 AM	#14
GoldenRivet Subsim Aviator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 8,726 Downloads: 146 Uploads: 0	if they apologize for Pearl i think we can apologize for the A-bombs i also hold the opinion that the US Military was justified in its use of the weapon. __________________

08-05-10, 08:48 AM	#2
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	I've met his grandson (he's a B-2 pilot), as well as General Tibbets himself. His son is right. The japanese should thank us for the a-bombs, they saved countless JAPANESE lives. Some goon asked General Tibbets if he had visited the Hiroshima Memorial when I saw him give a talk. He said "I've only been to Hiroshima the one time, and I didn't stop." Everyone laughed except the hippie.

08-05-10, 02:35 PM	#8
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	That Japan wanted to end the war is utter nonsense. That old claim is based on one intercepted message from a diplomat back to Tokyo where he said they should accept. The reply—which was in a code that did not have intercepts declassified until 1996—was an unambiguous "NO." It added that the plan was to bleed the US white on the beaches, THEN sue for peace with the US body count as a negotiating point. The a-bombs without question saved lives. Again, all POWs and detainees (civilians) would have been executed in September. Not to mention the fact that Hiroshima and Nagasaki would have simply been firebombed had they not been nuked. The 2d Tokyo fire bomb raid killed more than EITHER a-bomb. One of the best books dealing with the way the war ended (nitty gritty details from inside the Imperial Palace and IGHQ) is Richard Frank's excellent book, Downfall.