Promotions

[maillemaker]

I think the 'best' you can do is the way I do it. I start with a 'practice' patrol, which involves driving around the harbor for a bit of fun and then ending it. Then I use Commander to give every last one of them a job.

I guess this crew-tinkering is the big appeal of SH3 Commander. I just installed it last week and don't see what all the hubub is. It is extremely nice to be able to use it to jack the TC max up to 2000 or 4000 for long cruises.

It's also cool to see a "personnel report" for your character.

But other than that, I don't use it for much.

To me, a huge part of the draw of the game is clawing your way, patrol after patrol, to earning qualifications, ranks, and awards - as the game metes them out - trying to build a great crew that is efficient and resists fatigue. It takes about 10-15 patrols to do this. And trying to choose the right next qualification you really need vs. another one is cool also, trying to balance your crew.

If you use SH3 Commander to just dish them all out as you feel like it, it removes a big compelling part of the game for me.

Steve

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by maillemaker

IBut other than that, I don't use it for much.

Every time you sink a ship it is given a name. It is a name of a ship of roughly the same size and appearance of the model you sank. It also gives a cargo that that ship actually carried at one point or another, and roughly the same size crew. Of course I'm biased about that function, but for me it also increases the immersion tenfold.

For me the other charm of Commander is the 'Realistic Career' option, which means that I probably won't have to finish the war, but will be retired to a desk or school job, which is what really happened.

As far as crew qualifications goes, there is no such thing as an unqualified petty officer. The training is what earns them that title and grade. The way the stock game does it is totally unrealistic. Besides, giving them the qual doesn't give them the experience. They still have to earn that themselves.

Commander is one of the few reasons I even play SH3 any more, since SH4 does everything better but doesn't have the mods yet (if ever).

[maillemaker]

Every time you sink a ship it is given a name. It is a name of a ship of roughly the same size and appearance of the model you sank. It also gives a cargo that that ship actually carried at one point or another, and roughly the same size crew. Of course I'm biased about that function, but for me it also increases the immersion tenfold.

I found that mildly interesting. But it really does nothing for me "in game".

For me the other charm of Commander is the 'Realistic Career' option, which means that I probably won't have to finish the war, but will be retired to a desk or school job, which is what really happened.

I myself am more interested in trying to "beat" the game by surviving from the beginning of the war until the end, so I am not using the realistic career option.

As far as crew qualifications goes, there is no such thing as an unqualified petty officer. The training is what earns them that title and grade. The way the stock game does it is totally unrealistic. Besides, giving them the qual doesn't give them the experience. They still have to earn that themselves.

I understand the realism angle but like I said, part of what makes the game compelling for me is earning skill and fatigue upgrades - your success enables you to make your crew better. If I just dole it all out through Commander, it removes a lot of the point of the game for me.

If I started out with a fully-qualified crew and gave out medals (anti-fatigue points) as I felt like it, basically I'd start out with an awesome crew and then the game becomes all about sailing around sinking ships just for tonnage scores that I get no benefit from.

I guess I enjoy the struggle of having to build up the crew.

Steve

Originally Posted by Tessa

The Allies wised up after WWI and began re-capturing real-estate where the training grounds for the new officers and trainee capitains were. It became more of a trial by fire than a real training program after ~ 1943, only a handfull of officers really became proficient at the job like Topp and the (promoted) crew of U-48 which ultimatey comprised what remained of the combat elite.

After some researching I finally figured out the answer to your earlier question about a NCO w/o any pips. Found a much more detailed chart of all the enlisted ranks. Many of the odd looking ranks (like the blank nco's, or ones with 2 horizontal stripes across them) generally denoted NCO's that were Officer's in training.

Since (especially the Kriegsmarine) suffered from a full staffed leadership hierarchy many crewman would automatically be promoted to NCO ranks after 4 months as a sqaud leader on patrol, and then again in another 4 months if not promoted otherwise (and survived!). In a way, for the wrong reasons those that survived long enough to go on multiple patrols either were lucky or were doing something right with a 75% fatality rate; having the automatic promotions (under the conditions) I don't think were a bad thing as anyone that did get them were considered seasoned and (theoretically) knew what they were doing by then.

Very interesting stuff.
Thanks for sharing.

[Tessa]

Originally Posted by maillemaker

I myself am more interested in trying to "beat" the game by surviving from the beginning of the war until the end, so I am not using the realistic career option.

I understand the realism angle but like I said, part of what makes the game compelling for me is earning skill and fatigue upgrades - your success enables you to make your crew better. If I just dole it all out through Commander, it removes a lot of the point of the game for me.

If I started out with a fully-qualified crew and gave out medals (anti-fatigue points) as I felt like it, basically I'd start out with an awesome crew and then the game becomes all about sailing around sinking ships just for tonnage scores that I get no benefit from.

I guess I enjoy the struggle of having to build up the crew.

Steve

Trying to survive to the end and be on patrol at war's end (like Topp) is a tall order, just getting through 1944 is murder with all the air cover.

I still use SHC, but don't let it ruin my crews exp. My last patrol I had problems just manning some stations with almost 75% of my crew all at ! from being at action stations two days nonstop. Got lucky and ran into a gale near Denmark in early Winter, submerged and let my crew rest while I just put the ship to silent and slow speed at a course that led me into a harbor with the perfect firing angles on the 2 DD's; then took out the cargo after we'd recovered since in that weather no surface ship was going anywhere

Don't think that Ubisoft had Das Boot in mind when making the game and using the German Cross as the anti-fatigue panacea; but it is appropriate. The chief in the movie's the only member with that award and he's got a pure Rasputin constitution, even after dropping a nuke besides the roaches still being left I believe the chief would find a way to make it through

Originally Posted by Snestorm

Very interesting stuff.
Thanks for sharing.

Your welcome, for myself it really helped make a lot of things come together and understood why such an overly complex system was put into place. Had Germany had the resources to continue training Officers/NCO's in this manner throughout the war it would've caused a lot more problems for us. The whole system got put into motion in 1930, so just like today you would get good NCO's with 7-12 years experience Germany started the war as such but couldn't maintain the standards for more than a bit more than 2 years after they sucked the pool dry.

Also wanted to thank you for (indirectly) helping me finish my research for the mod I've always wanted to implement (even if I'm the only one that ever uses it!). There's a number of historical inaccuracies that have really taxed my patience as someone that collects WWII militaria and really enjoys and appreciates its history.

This game butchers some of it so much it kills a kitten each time it twists history. What I hope to be able to accomplish with my mod is to fix many of the mistakes and fabrications with the medals so that when you get awarded some of the higher ones they really do give you a sense of accomplishment. There's a few I hope to add (like the war merit crosses, honor roll, and a few others), and some that I am dying to fix - 86'ing the combat clasp in GOLD since it NEVER existed, there was only bronze and a very small amount in silver awarded (only a thousand or two could have been awarded requiring 5 years of service to be eligible), and fixing some of the (incorrect) medal dependencies like removing the German Cross - it wasn't required for the RK, it was actually awarded in cases where action didn't merit a RK; nor was it required (like the EK1 & 2) in order to get the RK; and some other issues dealing with dates awards became available and finally making the correct dependencies (like needing the RK with OL in order to get the Submarine Badge with Diamonds) and some other stuff that will hopefully spice up the game a bit. Thus my post in the mod forum about asking for help in setting up test cases to go about the (now directed) trial and error on which settings to tweak and add in order to make this happen.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by maillemaker

I found that mildly interesting. But it really does nothing for me "in game".

True. Unfortunately it can't be made otherwise.

I myself am more interested in trying to "beat" the game by surviving from the beginning of the war until the end, so I am not using the realistic career option.

Good point. I don't play that way, so I didn't even think of that angle.

I understand the realism angle but like I said, part of what makes the game compelling for me is earning skill and fatigue upgrades - your success enables you to make your crew better. If I just dole it all out through Commander, it removes a lot of the point of the game for me.

Another excellent point. I guess we're all limited by the way we see things. Good thing we have all these options.

If I started out with a fully-qualified crew and gave out medals (anti-fatigue points) as I felt like it, basically I'd start out with an awesome crew and then the game becomes all about sailing around sinking ships just for tonnage scores that I get no benefit from.

I'm just the opposite. I don't care how qualified the crew is, as long as the values are realistic. My style is to go to my assigned grid and stay there until fuel or ammunition forces me home. I might wander to the next grid after several weeks of seeing nothing, but I do see a lot of nothing.

I was once even in a boat that was ordered to the north of Iceland by a real-life 'immersion' order, so I went and stayed there the rest of the patrol. never saw a thing.

I guess I enjoy the struggle of having to build up the crew.

Ya gotta do what turns you on the most. But of course I also use 'Realistic Transfers', so I lose crew all the time.

[Kremmen]

Whoa ...never realised you could handle all the qualifications through Commander,very interesting,though I do like handing out the medals and qualifications after a patrol,like they've been earned it does indeed make sense that certain crewmen would be qualified in their specific roles onboard.
More options....

Kremmen

...yea I didn't RTFM

[twblackeagle]

Ahoy fellow kaleun,

And how about your capitan's ranking?
As you proceed with GWX version of SH3 you'll enjoy acknowledgement of your future successes by being assigned higher rankings. For example, our crew just completed mission 19 upon our return to Bergen Norway in a XXI. My rank was changed at that time to: Oberleutant Zur See, which if I'm not mistaken would see me (in theory) in command at uboat flotilla level.

I'm not rock-solid on the signifigance of this rank - so if anyone who may be reading this would like to comment please do!

Good hunting!

OB zs

Originally Posted by ijnfleetadmiral

First off, I absolutely LOVE this game!

Anyone know why you can't promote Seamen to Warrant Officers and Warrant Officers to Officers? My sonar operator is the highest-ranking enlisted person on my boat (he was promoted Chief Sr. Warrant Officer before any other Warrant Officer), and I've wanted to make him an officer for quite awhile now. I've awarded him nearly every medal (the only ones he doesn't have are the Wound Badge and the Knight's Cross; I just awarded him the German Cross in Gold after our last patrol), and I think he's quite deserving of officer rank.

What's the highest officer rank in the game? Wikipedia says 'Lieutenant Sr.', but I'm curious if anyone else has managed to reach higher.

TIA for any info!

-Matt

[twblackeagle]

Guten Tag,

I've read your comments with great interest.

I've survived 19 missions and amassed enough renown to get into the Type XXI. During this long process my crewaccumulated enough medals to see all who survived at least 8 missions with the cross in gold. All stations are now manned without need to switch crew for rest periods. Not realistic to be sure, but very convenient to manage.

Could I use SH3 Commander to appropriately fit into this setting?

Good Hunting,

Oberleutant z s Rolfe Hass

Originally Posted by maillemaker

I guess this crew-tinkering is the big appeal of SH3 Commander. I just installed it last week and don't see what all the hubub is. It is extremely nice to be able to use it to jack the TC max up to 2000 or 4000 for long cruises.

It's also cool to see a "personnel report" for your character.

But other than that, I don't use it for much.

To me, a huge part of the draw of the game is clawing your way, patrol after patrol, to earning qualifications, ranks, and awards - as the game metes them out - trying to build a great crew that is efficient and resists fatigue. It takes about 10-15 patrols to do this. And trying to choose the right next qualification you really need vs. another one is cool also, trying to balance your crew.

If you use SH3 Commander to just dish them all out as you feel like it, it removes a big compelling part of the game for me.

Steve

[twblackeagle]

Guten Tag,

I've read your comments with great interest.

I've survived 19 missions and amassed enough renown to get into the Type XXI. During this long process my crewaccumulated enough medals to see all who survived at least 8 missions with the cross in gold. All stations are now manned without need to switch crew for rest periods. Not realistic to be sure, but very convenient to manage.

Could I use Commander to appropriately fit into this setting?

Good Hunting,

Oberleutant z s Rolfe Hass

Originally Posted by maillemaker

I guess this crew-tinkering is the big appeal of SH3 Commander. I just installed it last week and don't see what all the hubub is. It is extremely nice to be able to use it to jack the TC max up to 2000 or 4000 for long cruises.

It's also cool to see a "personnel report" for your character.

But other than that, I don't use it for much.

To me, a huge part of the draw of the game is clawing your way, patrol after patrol, to earning qualifications, ranks, and awards - as the game metes them out - trying to build a great crew that is efficient and resists fatigue. It takes about 10-15 patrols to do this. And trying to choose the right next qualification you really need vs. another one is cool also, trying to balance your crew.

If you use SH3 Commander to just dish them all out as you feel like it, it removes a big compelling part of the game for me.

Steve

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by twblackeagle

Ahoy fellow kaleun,

And how about your capitan's ranking?
As you proceed with GWX version of SH3 you'll enjoy acknowledgement of your future successes by being assigned higher rankings. For example, our crew just completed mission 19 upon our return to Bergen Norway in a XXI. My rank was changed at that time to: Oberleutant Zur See, which if I'm not mistaken would see me (in theory) in command at uboat flotilla level.

I'm not rock-solid on the signifigance of this rank - so if anyone who may be reading this would like to comment please do!

Good hunting!

OB zs

Officer ranks in the Kriegsmarine (and their rough equivalents) were as follows:

Fähnrich zur See - Midshipman
Oberfähnrich zur See - Sub-Lieutenant
Leutnant zur See - Lieutenant (Junior)
Oberleutnant zur See - Lieutenant (Senior)
Kapitänleutnant - Lieutenant-Commander
Korvettenkapitän - Commander
Fregattenkapitän - Captain (Junior)
Kapitän zur See - Captain
Kommodore - Commodore
Konteradmiral - Rear-Admiral
Vizeadmiral - Vice-Admiral
Admiral - Admiral
Generaladmiral - no equivalent
Grossadmiral - Admiral of the Fleet

From what I've read, Oberleutnant was usually the lowest rank at which an officer had command of a combat u-boat - altho this may have changed as the war went on and the available officers' ranks were being thinned out both by transfer of more experienced men to shore duty as well as heavy combat losses in the ubootwaffe overall.

The most commonly held rank for a commander in actual combat seems to have been Kapitänleutnant; promotion above this rank often resulted in transfer to shore duty, either as a staff officer, flotilla commander, or instructor back at one of the training facilities. Some officers stayed in or returned to command of a frontboot after being promoted past this rank but it seems to have been a relatively rare occurrence.

Altho an Oberleutnant might be assigned to shore duty of some kind, I doubt that he would placed in command of a flotilla at that rank, especially given the fact there would probably be other u-boat commanders in that same flotilla who would have more experience and already outrank him if and when the position needed to be filled.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by twblackeagle

For example, our crew just completed mission 19 upon our return to Bergen Norway in a XXI. My rank was changed at that time to: Oberleutant Zur See, which if I'm not mistaken would see me (in theory) in command at uboat flotilla level.

GWX will promote you to Oberleutnant after your very first patrol.

As Frau Kaleun said, Oberleutnant z.S. was very junior for a u-boat commander, not senior. "Herr Kaleun" heard often in Das Boot, was the most common rank for that position, Kapitänleutnant z.S. A senior commander might be a Korvettenkapitän, and above that would almost certainly be assigned a command position (or transferred to command of a major surface warship).

Also in Das Boot you might pick up on the fact that both the LI (Chief Engineer) and 1WO (Exectutive Officer) were commonly addressed as "Herr Oberleutnant".

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Also in Das Boot you might pick up on the fact that both the LI (Chief Engineer) and 1WO (Exectutive Officer) were commonly addressed as "Herr Oberleutnant".

Altho for the sake of clarification and to satisfy my pedantic nature, it should be noted that the LI was an engineering officer and as such would not be in line for a command regardless of his rank.

[Tessa]

Originally Posted by frau kaleun

Officer ranks in the Kriegsmarine (and their rough equivalents) were as follows:

Fähnrich zur See - Midshipman
Oberfähnrich zur See - Sub-Lieutenant
Leutnant zur See - Lieutenant (Junior)
Oberleutnant zur See - Lieutenant (Senior)
Kapitänleutnant - Lieutenant-Commander
Korvettenkapitän - Commander
Fregattenkapitän - Captain (Junior)
Kapitän zur See - Captain
Kommodore - Commodore
Konteradmiral - Rear-Admiral
Vizeadmiral - Vice-Admiral
Admiral - Admiral
Generaladmiral - no equivalent
Grossadmiral - Admiral of the Fleet

From what I've read, Oberleutnant was usually the lowest rank at which an officer had command of a combat u-boat - altho this may have changed as the war went on and the available officers' ranks were being thinned out both by transfer of more experienced men to shore duty as well as heavy combat losses in the ubootwaffe overall.

The most commonly held rank for a commander in actual combat seems to have been Kapitänleutnant; promotion above this rank often resulted in transfer to shore duty, either as a staff officer, flotilla commander, or instructor back at one of the training facilities. Some officers stayed in or returned to command of a frontboot after being promoted past this rank but it seems to have been a relatively rare occurrence.

Altho an Oberleutnant might be assigned to shore duty of some kind, I doubt that he would placed in command of a flotilla at that rank, especially given the fact there would probably be other u-boat commanders in that same flotilla who would have more experience and already outrank him if and when the position needed to be filled.

Except really for the first two years and change of the war when rank and operations worked like they were suppposed to the kriegsmarine had the lowest amount of officers of any service. Unlike the US where they could afford to have 2 and 3 star admirals commanding single ships, the Kriegsmarine couldn't muster up enough admirals in the whole branch to equal what we had just out at sea (mostly as flat top captains). In contrast to the kriegsmarine, most allied sub commanders started as either majors or lt. commanders (equivalent to Korvettenkapitän or Fregattenkapitän). Don't think there were any admirals that remained at sea in command of their own submarines, the highest being captains (Kapitän zur See). Though a few Kapitän zur See did remain at see in command of their own boats, you can count them on one hand!

Imagine if Kaleuns like Prien or Kretschmer took on positions as Flotille commanders or kommandant/senior trainers at u-boat schools the u-boat service might have been able to retain more of its initial higher level of proficiency when sending out new boats to sea. While no single action could have prevented the outcome, had each gross mistake been corrected it might have made things more interesting and reduced the fatality rate down from 75% to something at least humane, at that rate I think Kamikaze's actually inflicted more overall damage (despite the effort overall being a failure), it did inflict fear into the surface ship crews and usually cause moderate to major damage when a plane was successful.

At the least, it would have made the allies uneasy knowing that such great men were still alive and teaching/passing on their knowledge to new and existing officers might have shifted their priorities - to expend more resources bombing the u-boot pens and schools than using 100% of them to hunting u-boots instead. Just as the German wehrmact was scarred to death of Patton, the navies could have been equally freightened of Kretchsmer, Prien or Topp planning, organizing and sending out wolf packs that would've stood a much better chance at success.

In any other branch field grade officers became almost like flag rank status in the kriegsmarine - you had Korvettenkapitän's as Flotille commanders! That's the same as putting a Major from the allied forces in charge of a major base like Pearl Harbor or Gibraltor! In most cases it seemed that getting promoted to Korvettenkapitän was like a death sentence, with only a handfull of them actually surviving to either take a command on land or surive to the end of the war.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by frau kaleun

Altho for the sake of clarification and to satisfy my pedantic nature, it should be noted that the LI was an engineering officer and as such would not be in line for a command regardless of his rank.

Very true. I was only considering the ranks themselves.