Convoy battle in the Gulf of Aden

[Gerald]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Yep! You are right. That's why Oberon calls me "Jack Ryan", because I'm like a CIA analyst when it comes to foreign navies.

[FIREWALL]

To bad. The Chinese kinda had a golden opportunity.

[Gerald]

Originally Posted by FIREWALL

To bad. The Chinese kinda had a golden opportunity.

after that I´m going just too china, so I can see with my eyes how they work or even notice whats going on,so be careful,(I refer too post above) Aim the eels to run fine and hit,not me

[Skybird]

Interesting (and worrying) references to Iranian swarming tactics in that article. I always wondered how a frigate or destroyer with a helicopter would manage to defend itself when it is attacked by 1 or 2 dozen speedboats simultaneously. Even more I am wondering if some of these boats do not have just machineguns, but maybe also SAMs against helicopters, and light SSMs or RPGs. Neither side would get out of such a fight unhurt. And pictures in that article and part of the comment highlight again how difficult it can be to spot such boats at shallow angles from onboard a ship.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Interesting (and worrying) references to Iranian swarming tactics in that article. I always wondered how a frigate or destroyer with a helicopter would manage to defend itself when it is attacked by 1 or 2 dozen speedboats simultaneously. Even more I am wondering if some of these boats do not have just machineguns, but maybe also SAMs against helicopters, and light SSMs or RPGs. Neither side would get out of such a fight unhurt. And pictures in that article and part of the comment highlight again how difficult it can be to spot such boats at shallow angles from onboard a ship.

The armaments of the IRGCN speed boats varies but the heaviest weapons I've seen mounted are 107mm rockets. 12.7mm machine guns or 23mm cannons are carried as are M-08 mines and small arms. Never seen a light SSM or SAM since the speed boats pitch up and down so much it would make aiming those difficult.

[Skybird]

And what speaks against a speeboat stopping for short or at least going slow and firing a Stinger against that helicopter?

As well as a decent light ATGM or RPG. Some RPGs reach out for a maximum of 800m. Even the majority of RPG firing at 150-300 meters already are a lethal threat to a ship. Imagine such a projectile imploding on the bridge, or penetrating the turret magazine, a weapons stands, or just the hull in front of the engine room. We know that modern RPGs have taken out Abrams in Iraq from diverse angles. If the sea is calm enough that a trained person can handle a sextant, you certainly can train a person to get off an RPG shot as well.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Skybird

And what speaks against a speeboat stopping for short or at least going slow and firing a Stinger against that helicopter?

As well as a decent light ATGM or RPG. Some RPGs reach out for a maximum of 800m. Even the majority of RPG firing at 150-300 meters already are a lethal threat to a ship. Imagine such a projectile imploding on the bridge, or penetrating the turret magazine, a weapons stands, or just the hull in front of the engine room. We know that modern RPGs have taken out Abrams in Iraq from diverse angles. If the sea is calm enough that a trained person can handle a sextant, you certainly can train a person to get off an RPG shot as well.

Well a helicopter can stay out of MANPAD range if it encounters suspicious small craft. The MH-60Rs have a FLIR turret with sufficient range to spot such vessels, also drones can provide early detection of suspicious boats well out of sight of a gunner on their deck.

Simple solution to the RPG problem, in time of war shoot any ship that approaches within 1,000 meters, that's within range of a M61 20mm cannon. An air burst 5in shell would also be devastating miles away- with a drone providing targeting small craft could be engaged well beyond their weapon's range.

[Skybird]

Well I understand all that, but I am about that part of the article'S comment that mentions swarming tactics like in this attempt to catch the Chinese with - so they claimed - 50 speedboats, and then there is the part showing how difficult it can be to spot these damn things from aboard a ship, you see it at one of the photos.

I also do not know what kind of mounting devices you need for Stinger or RPG-style weapons!? You need a man and you need two hands and one shoulder, no tripod. And now consider a scenario where you have lets say 3 frigates, a naval area with plenty of fishing boats - and suddenly 2 dozens skiffs or even rubberboats of them start zigzaggin and racing at the frigates, maybe even loaded up with explosives planned to go off on contact, who knows. You are in the middle of a frenzy, numerous tiny contacts zigzagging and going stop-and-go, flooding the defender's field of vision, plus the attempt to sepoarate targets from civilians who also may speed up in an attempt to flee from the area.

So far only the pirates seem to use swarm tactics with so many boats. Consider that being the case with fanatical Republican Guards, in a limited body of water like the Hormuz straits, maybe even with an SS lurking somewhere close by!

There is a saying in German: viele Hunde sind des Hasen Tod. Many hounds soon catch the hare, or not? In a scneario of 12 speedboats with RPG and close range air defence missiles against a frigate with a helcioter, I would not automatically put my money on the frigate. Even less so when the speedboats are not operated by somali pirates with poor training and discipline, but fanatics who have received very strict military training and discipline.

[TLAM Strike]

Well those photos were taken from deck level- maybe on the bridge wings. Many warships now have EO/FLIR sensors on their masts nearly doubling the horizon for them.

Sky I think you should read up on what the capabilities of the USN's 5 in gun. Its has the speed of traverse and accuracy to shoot down subsonic missiles. It has been combat proven against such small craft back during the tanker war. The Ticonderoga class CG that shot down the Iranian Jet Liner did that while in a gun fight with several Boghammer boats. The CG sank several Boghammers, none of which was able to successfully engage the cruiser.

The smaller Oto Breda 76mm Rapid Fire found on USN frigates, Allied Frigates and USCG Cutters would be even more effective since it has a larger capacity of rounds ready to fire and traverses even faster.

Don't forget the US also has its own small craft that could counter them. The 34' Force Protection Boat comes to mind. It doesn't have the heavy weapons and is a little slower but it has more small arms and better armor. Those Swedish assault boats the USN purchased would also be useful.

[Skybird]

Well, I admit I see it from an outsider's perspective and cannot competently comment on the specific platforms and systems you refer to. I know of things like the Phalanx-system and that it can bring down incoming vampires, to what degree it is agile enough to engage two dozen small, zigzagging targets simultaneously I have no idea of, so: now is the point in the debate where I necessarily must fold.

[Jimbuna]

TLAM raises good points and explanations......crerate a 1000 metre exclusion zone with a multi-layered defence to include (and not in any specific order) missiles, guns, aircraft and CIWS systems....anything approaches and they are fair game.

I should imagine the message would soon get across.

Now, include a carrier and accompanying AWAC.....set the exclusion zone to anything you want.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Now, include a carrier and accompanying AWAC.....set the exclusion zone to anything you want.

I doubt a the USN would send a carrier anywhere near the range of these boats in wartime. A CVN would most likely patrol about 500 nm out in the Indian Ocean to be out of range of shore based SSMs and to give their alert fighters ample time to react to any approaching bogies.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

I doubt a the USN would send a carrier anywhere near the range of these boats in wartime. A CVN would most likely patrol about 500 nm out in the Indian Ocean to be out of range of shore based SSMs and to give their alert fighters ample time to react to any approaching bogies.

Most definitely....hence setting the exclusion zone to a far wider radious.....I doubt they'd get close enough to see the plume of smoke of any surface vessel

[Gerald]

Pakistan begins submarine procurement talks with China and that could take place in different ways.."Our Chinese brothers have always come to our help and we are asking them for assistance".Sounds vicissitude,was they really is more likely,cover-operation.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Most definitely....hence setting the exclusion zone to a far wider radious.....I doubt they'd get close enough to see the plume of smoke of any surface vessel

Doubt our ships would be giving off much of a smoke plume. They are gas turbine ships plus the diffusers work very well on US ships.

I would be more worried about an Iranian MPA (P-3 or Fokker F-27) detecting the carrier group. Or a fishing trawler "tattling" on them.

Iran also has two recon birds up in orbit. Sina-1 has low 50m resolution- not sufficient for military purposes. SMMS has a slightly better 20m resolution- that capability while still low could become worrisome.

A civilian ship with concealed C-802 launchers would also be a major concern. During the IRGCN's "Great Prophet 5" exercises they demonstrated a C-802 launcher built in to a mid size commercial truck.

Not hard to imagine a version mounted in a shipping container much like that new Russian system for the SS-N-27 'Sizzler'.