Das Boot or the American Fleet Boat

[Noren]

Radas is all good but even if the germans had access to them, I know they had stationary radar, I doubt that they would have been useful in a routinely manner.
The allied convoys, signal stations and aircraft could, I belive, easily pick up on german radar signals and home in.

Im not to familiar to the pacific theatre but I dont recall the japanese having radar-detectors or searchplanes covering every bit of the western pacific. One could perhaps reason that american captains had a less risk of suddenly beeing attack, in most of the pacific.

[Dread Knot]

Originally Posted by Noren

Im not to familiar to the pacific theatre but I dont recall the japanese having radar-detectors or searchplanes covering every bit of the western pacific. One could perhaps reason that american captains had a less risk of suddenly beeing attack, in most of the pacific.

The Japanese had good search planes. The excellent Kawanishi flying boats with a range of 4,210 miles. But because US subs had radar they could evade them.

The secret to a successful submarine cmpaign. Pick your opponent carefully.

[Catfish]

Hello Noren,
while the germans thought that even their passive radar-detecting devices emitted some kind of radiation (and therefore did not really like to use it), the allied did not have (as far as i know) the capability to pick up passive radar detection devices, or even active radar signals (anyone?), let alone the japanese.

While Germany had and used Radar, and was quite good in building big exact long-range devices on warships etc., it lacked smaller types, especially the cm radar was considered as impossible to build into small aircraft or U-boats, by scientists in Germany, because the device was considered as being too big to install it on a plane, or U-boat.
With their well-developped cm radar allied ships and planes were theoretically able in the later war, to detect snorkels and periscopes, and generally all smaller things above sea level.

This is why german U-boat commanders and the high brass could not explain what was happening, like aircraft attacking at night in almost zero visibility. Instead they thought of a traitor in the naval headquarters.
Another guess was the allies using some kind of infrared night visison detection, and England mocked them by just using red lights (decyphered messages again). It was a hidden and secret war, no side knew exactly what the other was able to.
After the war it turned out that Germany had indeed become a leader in infrared night sight technology, due to the research on the assumed allied technology - which had not really been in existence at that time.

When a U-boat's Enigma telegram with a position had been decyphered, a cross bearing done (if the transmission was long enough, what it was mostly not due to the german short "taboo" system of sending), it was easy to send a cm radar-equipped plane to the vicinity of the last position, and let it find the boat.
It was not quite that simple, but with trained crews, personnel, bombs, rockets and special homing-in airborne torpdoes - you get the idea.

US radar was another standard, they used 10 cm radar which was enough against enemy ships and planes, but with a reliable turning system, and high above the bridge on a radar mast, improving range - something that was not done even on the later IXD2 boats. The german late active radar was often poorly built, with the turning electric motor failing after a few days of use. The new electric boats like XXI came too late to be decisive.

Greetings,
Catfish

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Noren

Radas is all good but even if the germans had access to them, I know they had stationary radar, I doubt that they would have been useful in a routinely manner.
The allied convoys, signal stations and aircraft could, I belive, easily pick up on german radar signals and home in.

Im not to familiar to the pacific theatre but I dont recall the japanese having radar-detectors or searchplanes covering every bit of the western pacific. One could perhaps reason that american captains had a less risk of suddenly beeing attack, in most of the pacific.

Then you need to get familiar with the Pacific theater, it helps to know more about the subject you're talking about (not saying that in a sarcastic way at all).

[Gammelpreusse]

RADAR was a great asset in the Pacific, that is a fact. Especially against the japanese with their rather sparse ressources.

However, in the Atlantic, and there I agree with Cat, it would have posed a problem. German boats had Radar, but hardly ever used it for very specific reasons. Fleet Boats operating in the role of the german subs would have faced the same problems. So I am not exactly sure this device would have made such a difference on a basis of principle, not taking opertional theater conditions into account.

[Decoman]

I am guessing that the Japanese military did not have that good of an air coverage for the Pacific. Else aircraft would seem like a good way to spot US submarines on the surface.

So I am thinking that the Japanese was not that big of a threat when it came to air attacks against submarines. Wheter or not it was dangerous in general is of no importance. Being in the military is dangerous by itself, you could sit in a car/tank peacetime and end up dead because someone decided to drive across a frozen lake.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by Gammelpreusse

RADAR was a great asset in the Pacific, that is a fact. Especially against the japanese with their rather sparse ressources.

However, in the Atlantic, and there I agree with Cat, it would have posed a problem. German boats had Radar, but hardly ever used for very specific reasons. Fleet Boats operating in the role the german subs took would have faced the same problems. So I am not exactly sure this device would have made such a difference on a principle basis, taking opertional theater conditions into account.

Radar would have been a great tactical assets to U-Boats, especially at night or low visibility conditions. Many U-Boats were caught on the surface and sunk by escorts or airplanes which could see them on Radar, while the U-Boat crew were basically blind.

[Gammelpreusse]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

Radar would have been a great tactical assets to U-Boats, especially at night or low visibility conditions. Many U-Boats were caught on the surface and sunk by escorts or airplanes which could see tham on Radar, while the U-Boat crew were basically blind.

That is the point, however. RADAR works both ways, like a flashlight it helps you seeing stuff, but it also helps others to see you even better, given the right detection equipment. And the allies were particulary good at using every means to find U-Boats, including, to my knowledge, RADAR emission detectors. Evading an allied plane does not help much if this plane is able to signal your position, circle the area and gets relieved in this until the boat has to resurface just to have more planes or even a hunter/killer group waiting for you.

RADAR signals travel way further then their effective return signal treshhold.

That aside, this is a particualry good site for WW2 era RADARS:

http://www.radarworld.org

[Dread Knot]

Originally Posted by Decoman

I am guessing that the Japanese military did not have that good of an air coverage for the Pacific. Else aircraft would seem like a good way to spot US submarines on the surface.

So I am thinking that the Japanese was not that big of a threat when it came to air attacks against submarines. .

The Japanese had plenty of planes to defend their Pacific conquests. That's why the US had to build a massive fleet of carriers and escort carriers for it's offensive to retake them. However, if you have decent air search radar and your opponent's planes don't, then a plane is easy to evade by pulling the plug.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by Gammelpreusse

That is the point, however. RADAR works both ways, like a flashlight it helps you seeing stuff, but it also helps others to see you even better, given the right detection equipment. And the allies were particulary good at using every means to find U-Boats, inclusing, to my knowledge, RADAR emission detectors.

RADAR signals travel way further then their effective return signal treshhold.

true, but in modern warfare, the key to survival is detecting your enemy before he detects you.

In the Pacific, the U.S. Navy showed what a huge tactical advantage Radar could be. By 1944-45, U.S. fleet Boats were attacking heavily escorted IJN convoys and Task Forces on the surface at will.

The reality of the battle of the Atlantic is that after Radar became standard equipment on Allied escorts/airplanes in 41-42, U-Boats were at a huge disadvantage.

[Gammelpreusse]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

true, but in modern warfare, the key to survival is detecting your enemy before he detects you.

In the Pacific, the U.S. Navy showed what a huge tactical advantage Radar could be. By 1944-45, U.S. fleet Boats were attacking heavily escorted IJN convoys and Task Forces on the surface at will.

The reality of the battle of the Atlantic is that after Radar became standard equipment on Allied escorts/airplanes in 41-42, U-Boats were at a huge disadvantage.

The facts are there, I won't dispute any of your statements in this regard. However, I disagree with your conclusions.

Your claim about "Detecting the enemy before he detects you" is exactly what I try to bring across here.

Look at it this way. A german U-boat on patrol in the North Atlantic, in bad weather conditions, uses it's RADAR. Let's put the effective range for a generic set at 20 miles. Within this radius the Boat i able to get a return signal.

The RADAR waves, however, do not stop at this radius, an allied plane flying at a distance of around 30 miles would still be able to detect these signals without the U-Boat beeing able to detect the plane in return.

You see where this leads?

The japanese ASW and patrol planes, and again, only to my knowledge, did not posses such equipment, or at least not to the same sophistication, which made US RADAR use in the Pacific a completly different affair then german RADAR use in the Atlantic.

[nikimcbee]

I'll just add the livability factors to to the fleet boats. I can't imagine being on a type VII for an extended patrol.

Regarding radar, I don't know (remember) at what point the Japanese came up with a radar detector?

Then there's the command and control structure, but I guess that is for another thread.

[Bilge_Rat]

If you are looking at air v. sub, detecting an airplane on radar was easier and possible at greater range, even with WW2 technology, because the airplane sticks out all alone in the air with no competing false returns.

Detecting a sub on the surface from the air could only be done from a much shorter range, because the sub gets lost in the "surface clutter", namely the many false returns from radar waves which hit the surface of the sea and are reflected back to the radar set on the airplane. In WW2, the airplane has to be fairly close before the radar image of the sub would burn through the clutter and show up on the set.

So a radar equipped sub on the surface could have detected the airplane early enough to dive and survive rather than be surprised on the surface and killed. The U.S. Navy proved that in the Pacific.

[Dread Knot]

Originally Posted by nikimcbee

I'll just add the livability factors to to the fleet boats. I can't imagine being on a type VII for an extended patrol.

Regarding radar, I don't know (remember) at what point the Japanese came up with a radar detector?

By 1944 they were starting to become commonplace (with a little German help.) The Japanese battleships Ise and Hyuga ran a gauntlet of waiting US subs during their run from Singapore back to home waters using recently installed radar detectors. However, they never sailed again due to lack of fuel, and were wrecked at anchor by US carrier planes.

[Gammelpreusse]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

If you are looking at air v. sub, detecting an airplane on radar was easier and possible at greater range, even with WW2 technology, because the airplane sticks out all alone in the air with no competing false returns.

Detecting a sub on the surface from the air could only be done from a much shorter range, because the sub gets lost in the "surface clutter", namely the many false returns from radar waves which hit the surface of the sea and are reflected back to the radar set on the airplane. In WW2, the airplane has to be fairly close before the radar image of the sub would burn through the clutter and show up on the set.

So a radar equipped sub on the surface could have detected the airplane early enough to dive and survive rather than be surprised on the surface and killed. The U.S. Navy proved that in the Pacific.

That applies if the plane's only detection equipment is RADAR as well, not a RADAR signal detector.