Das Boot or the American Fleet Boat

[Gammelpreusse]

RADAR was a great asset in the Pacific, that is a fact. Especially against the japanese with their rather sparse ressources.

However, in the Atlantic, and there I agree with Cat, it would have posed a problem. German boats had Radar, but hardly ever used it for very specific reasons. Fleet Boats operating in the role of the german subs would have faced the same problems. So I am not exactly sure this device would have made such a difference on a basis of principle, not taking opertional theater conditions into account.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by Gammelpreusse

RADAR was a great asset in the Pacific, that is a fact. Especially against the japanese with their rather sparse ressources.

However, in the Atlantic, and there I agree with Cat, it would have posed a problem. German boats had Radar, but hardly ever used for very specific reasons. Fleet Boats operating in the role the german subs took would have faced the same problems. So I am not exactly sure this device would have made such a difference on a principle basis, taking opertional theater conditions into account.

Radar would have been a great tactical assets to U-Boats, especially at night or low visibility conditions. Many U-Boats were caught on the surface and sunk by escorts or airplanes which could see them on Radar, while the U-Boat crew were basically blind.

[Gammelpreusse]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

Radar would have been a great tactical assets to U-Boats, especially at night or low visibility conditions. Many U-Boats were caught on the surface and sunk by escorts or airplanes which could see tham on Radar, while the U-Boat crew were basically blind.

That is the point, however. RADAR works both ways, like a flashlight it helps you seeing stuff, but it also helps others to see you even better, given the right detection equipment. And the allies were particulary good at using every means to find U-Boats, including, to my knowledge, RADAR emission detectors. Evading an allied plane does not help much if this plane is able to signal your position, circle the area and gets relieved in this until the boat has to resurface just to have more planes or even a hunter/killer group waiting for you.

RADAR signals travel way further then their effective return signal treshhold.

That aside, this is a particualry good site for WW2 era RADARS:

http://www.radarworld.org

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by Gammelpreusse

That is the point, however. RADAR works both ways, like a flashlight it helps you seeing stuff, but it also helps others to see you even better, given the right detection equipment. And the allies were particulary good at using every means to find U-Boats, inclusing, to my knowledge, RADAR emission detectors.

RADAR signals travel way further then their effective return signal treshhold.

true, but in modern warfare, the key to survival is detecting your enemy before he detects you.

In the Pacific, the U.S. Navy showed what a huge tactical advantage Radar could be. By 1944-45, U.S. fleet Boats were attacking heavily escorted IJN convoys and Task Forces on the surface at will.

The reality of the battle of the Atlantic is that after Radar became standard equipment on Allied escorts/airplanes in 41-42, U-Boats were at a huge disadvantage.

[Gammelpreusse]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

true, but in modern warfare, the key to survival is detecting your enemy before he detects you.

In the Pacific, the U.S. Navy showed what a huge tactical advantage Radar could be. By 1944-45, U.S. fleet Boats were attacking heavily escorted IJN convoys and Task Forces on the surface at will.

The reality of the battle of the Atlantic is that after Radar became standard equipment on Allied escorts/airplanes in 41-42, U-Boats were at a huge disadvantage.

The facts are there, I won't dispute any of your statements in this regard. However, I disagree with your conclusions.

Your claim about "Detecting the enemy before he detects you" is exactly what I try to bring across here.

Look at it this way. A german U-boat on patrol in the North Atlantic, in bad weather conditions, uses it's RADAR. Let's put the effective range for a generic set at 20 miles. Within this radius the Boat i able to get a return signal.

The RADAR waves, however, do not stop at this radius, an allied plane flying at a distance of around 30 miles would still be able to detect these signals without the U-Boat beeing able to detect the plane in return.

You see where this leads?

The japanese ASW and patrol planes, and again, only to my knowledge, did not posses such equipment, or at least not to the same sophistication, which made US RADAR use in the Pacific a completly different affair then german RADAR use in the Atlantic.

[Bilge_Rat]

If you are looking at air v. sub, detecting an airplane on radar was easier and possible at greater range, even with WW2 technology, because the airplane sticks out all alone in the air with no competing false returns.

Detecting a sub on the surface from the air could only be done from a much shorter range, because the sub gets lost in the "surface clutter", namely the many false returns from radar waves which hit the surface of the sea and are reflected back to the radar set on the airplane. In WW2, the airplane has to be fairly close before the radar image of the sub would burn through the clutter and show up on the set.

So a radar equipped sub on the surface could have detected the airplane early enough to dive and survive rather than be surprised on the surface and killed. The U.S. Navy proved that in the Pacific.

[Gammelpreusse]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

If you are looking at air v. sub, detecting an airplane on radar was easier and possible at greater range, even with WW2 technology, because the airplane sticks out all alone in the air with no competing false returns.

Detecting a sub on the surface from the air could only be done from a much shorter range, because the sub gets lost in the "surface clutter", namely the many false returns from radar waves which hit the surface of the sea and are reflected back to the radar set on the airplane. In WW2, the airplane has to be fairly close before the radar image of the sub would burn through the clutter and show up on the set.

So a radar equipped sub on the surface could have detected the airplane early enough to dive and survive rather than be surprised on the surface and killed. The U.S. Navy proved that in the Pacific.

That applies if the plane's only detection equipment is RADAR as well, not a RADAR signal detector.

[JamesT73J]

According to at least one source I've read (Cold War Submarines by Polmar and Moore) Doenitz knew as early as the late thirties that the contemporary type of submersibles had a limited future. As soon as Radar was advanced enough (and surface forces owned the surface) the type VII and IX were through.

Herbert Werner (Iron Coffins) was more critical, understanding that by 1943 the boats of the period were basically useless against the allied advances.

Hence the explorations into alternative designs as early as 1942.

[nikimcbee]

I'll just add the livability factors to to the fleet boats. I can't imagine being on a type VII for an extended patrol.

Regarding radar, I don't know (remember) at what point the Japanese came up with a radar detector?

Then there's the command and control structure, but I guess that is for another thread.

[Dread Knot]

Originally Posted by nikimcbee

I'll just add the livability factors to to the fleet boats. I can't imagine being on a type VII for an extended patrol.

Regarding radar, I don't know (remember) at what point the Japanese came up with a radar detector?

By 1944 they were starting to become commonplace (with a little German help.) The Japanese battleships Ise and Hyuga ran a gauntlet of waiting US subs during their run from Singapore back to home waters using recently installed radar detectors. However, they never sailed again due to lack of fuel, and were wrecked at anchor by US carrier planes.