UBI have any grudges with the Destroyer Command - Page 2

Méo · 02-25-10, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OakGroove

As long as there's a request, someone will want to capitalize on this, sooner or later

Maybe, but I would be curious to know what is your prediction on many years it will take before we see it.

No offence, I'm just not very optimistic about it.

OakGroove · 02-25-10, 09:43 AM

Not expecting someone to tackle the submarine genre as soon as UBI leaves the helm either, at least not immediately. But who knows.

Onkel Neal · 02-25-10, 09:47 AM

Same here. Yes, there is demand, but very small demand, and the hurdle rate to invest and build in an AAA game like we are used to is much greater than the demand (imo). I wish I could agree some studio will pick up where Ubi left off but I don't see it happening soon. And by soon, I'm estimating 10 years or more, based on the span that we have seen since the boom of great simualtions in the 90s.

Let's hope that's not the case.

Nordmann · 02-25-10, 09:51 AM

Sadly, it's all too easy to mass produce games for the idiot market, rather than specialised simulations. The funny thing about it all, is the fact that a lot of companies are making a big loss with the former, because quite simply, there's too many other companies doing the exact same thing!

oscar19681 · 02-25-10, 09:52 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

"Dangerous Waters" featured realistic playable submarines, ASW aircrafts and ASW vessels. How many players bought that? Obviously not enough for Sonalyst to continue the series.

The problem with dangerous waters is , although its a real hard-core subsim (which is maybe also a factor to not be succesful for the casual gamer) the trade off for this was that the grafics where hoplelessly outdated since it was based upon 688i hunter/killer and thats a game from 1997. I mean even for the day it was releases the grafics where seriouly lacking. It also serioully lacked even the most normal animations ( the ships screws didnt even stop when ordered full stop etc etc)

Bilge_Rat · 02-25-10, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oscar19681

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

"Dangerous Waters" featured realistic playable submarines, ASW aircrafts and ASW vessels. How many players bought that? Obviously not enough for Sonalyst to continue the series.

The problem with dangerous waters is , although its a real hard-core subsim (which is maybe also a factor to not be succesful for the casual gamer) the trade off for this was that the grafics where hoplelessly outdated since it was based upon 688i hunter/killer and thats a game from 1997. I mean even for the day it was releases the grafics where seriouly lacking. It also serioully lacked even the most normal animations ( the ships screws didnt even stop when ordered full stop etc etc)

I do not disagree.

Although since hardcore wargamers are always saying that graphics are not important as long as the underlying sim is realistic, I find it ironic that beautiful lighter sims like Silent Hunter will always outsell more hardcore sims like the 688i/Sub Command/Dangerous Waters.

Even here, amongst the Subnut elite, there was always more interest in SH than DW.

I guess we are all suckers (myself included) for beautiful graphics, even at the expense of realism.

Heretic · 02-25-10, 10:11 AM

I don't think it's realistic to expect other, smaller companies, to get into this. They're not immune from the same market realities that UBI faces. The Silent Hunter engine has years of development in it, and whatever hardcore sim elements it has are a legacy of that. Any other company would be starting from scratch. They'd still need a product that's marketable to a larger audience, which means a large investment in graphics, sound, etc. All this, while trying to make a hardcore sim from the ground up? I'm sure many companies have looked at this genre, did the research, ran the numbers, and concluded the limited market just doesn't justify the expense.

Development costs are only going to keep rising. I think it's more likely niche products will disappear entirely then be taken over by small companies with even fewer resources. The market only understands one virture - profit.

scrapser · 02-25-10, 10:29 AM

I just did some quick reading overnight to familiarize myself with the current economics of developing computer games. I'm shocked. It has completely changed my perception of this industry. Right now I feel about the same as I did when Commodore-Amiga went bankrupt. I never thought I would feel that way again.

Furia · 02-26-10, 08:31 AM

I am not an economist but I know that demand is not only the combination of the potential demand for a product but the demand you create while promoting your product.

SHIII and SH IV were nice games but basically single player ones.
They missed the exciting, challenging and attractive mp mode where humen players could defend a convoy while others in subs tried to sink them.
For me, SH II vs DC were the peak and gold age of submarine computer simulation.

We do not need a stand alone DC game, maybe that one would not sell enough, but I am almost certain that a SH V expansion including 1 type of escort, fully controllable by humans (And I do not mean the charade of SH IV "human controlled escort") would surely bring life, continuity, activities, MP competition and afterall SALES.
No matter how advanced and scripted the AI is, for me they would never match the thrill of hunting and sinking human controlled ships.

Is there any chance the SH saga has a future this MUST enclose the posibility of commanding as well an escort.

Not as stand alone game but as an expansion of SHV plus other stuff. I am sure that one would sell good enough and would give SHV life and renown to continue for many years.
You do not need a new engine or new game. Just create 1 escort type under the same game. LOL they already even have the 3D external model.
Just pick up one escort type and create the art interiors and interfaces.

SH saga would NEVER be the same without a controlled human escort to play MP combats.
Fighting AI is boring after some months.

I would surely purchase such expansion. lol I would even preordered now

Onkel Neal · 02-26-10, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oscar19681

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

"Dangerous Waters" featured realistic playable submarines, ASW aircrafts and ASW vessels. How many players bought that? Obviously not enough for Sonalyst to continue the series.

The problem with dangerous waters is , although its a real hard-core subsim (which is maybe also a factor to not be succesful for the casual gamer) the trade off for this was that the grafics where hoplelessly outdated since it was based upon 688i hunter/killer and thats a game from 1997. I mean even for the day it was releases the grafics where seriouly lacking. It also serioully lacked even the most normal animations ( the ships screws didnt even stop when ordered full stop etc etc)

True.

Quote:

Originally Posted by scrapser

I just did some quick reading overnight to familiarize myself with the current economics of developing computer games. I'm shocked. It has completely changed my perception of this industry. Right now I feel about the same as I did when Commodore-Amiga went bankrupt. I never thought I would feel that way again.

I am always interested in this field, could you pass along some links to what you read? thanks!

himlaviz · 02-26-10, 09:01 AM

I would like to see a simulation like Silent Hunter 5 to have a long term support and development with new content and fixes. If that means we have to buy our II, IX and XXI through DLC that is so popular now I would be happy to pour some more $$ ubisoft/devs way.

Additional subs = smaller cheap DLC.
Campaign beyond 1943 and new features = larger DLC.
"Destroyer Command" and new features = larger DLC.
Pacific Theatre = full addon with content and new features.
Additional pacific subs = small cheap DLC.

Same base game that will get improvements and perhaps utilize new technology when the addon is released and it will have a longer lifetime, maybe 6-8 years. Isn't IL-2 a good example of this?

Stormfly · 02-26-10, 10:48 AM

Steam inform us that SH5 coms also with that "Adversial Mode" included...

"Multiplayer Mode Play in cooperative or adversarial modes in scripted and generated missions."

I just wonder if this is:

- the same crap SH4 had ?
- is it maybe a typo by copying older SH4 features ?
- is it maybe the same crap from SH4 but got a bit of improvement ?
- would our dream come true and we get a full controlable escort with manual controlabale DC (setting depth), hedgehogs, a virtual 3D bridge together with full operational sonar & radar stations ?

Heretic · 02-26-10, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by himlaviz

I would like to see a simulation like Silent Hunter 5 to have a long term support and development with new content and fixes. If that means we have to buy our II, IX and XXI through DLC that is so popular now I would be happy to pour some more $$ ubisoft/devs way.

Additional subs = smaller cheap DLC.
Campaign beyond 1943 and new features = larger DLC.
"Destroyer Command" and new features = larger DLC.
Pacific Theatre = full addon with content and new features.
Additional pacific subs = small cheap DLC.

Same base game that will get improvements and perhaps utilize new technology when the addon is released and it will have a longer lifetime, maybe 6-8 years. Isn't IL-2 a good example of this?

02-25-10, 09:43 AM	#17
OakGroove 中国水兵 Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 275 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Not expecting someone to tackle the submarine genre as soon as UBI leaves the helm either, at least not immediately. But who knows. __________________ The idea that a company with more negotiating power over its customers will cut them a better deal is just bizarre. Mad Science spawns Evil Fiend: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkTZTzsYoZs

02-25-10, 09:47 AM	#18
Onkel Neal Born to Run Silent Join Date: Jan 1997 Location: Cougar Trap, Texas Posts: 21,385 Downloads: 541 Uploads: 224	Same here. Yes, there is demand, but very small demand, and the hurdle rate to invest and build in an AAA game like we are used to is much greater than the demand (imo). I wish I could agree some studio will pick up where Ubi left off but I don't see it happening soon. And by soon, I'm estimating 10 years or more, based on the span that we have seen since the boom of great simualtions in the 90s. Let's hope that's not the case. __________________ SUBSIM - 26 Years on the Web

02-25-10, 09:51 AM	#19
Nordmann Commodore Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: England Posts: 628 Downloads: 62 Uploads: 0	Sadly, it's all too easy to mass produce games for the idiot market, rather than specialised simulations. The funny thing about it all, is the fact that a lot of companies are making a big loss with the former, because quite simply, there's too many other companies doing the exact same thing! __________________ "I must confess that my imagination refuses to see any sort of submarine doing anything but suffocating its crew and floundering at sea." - H. G. Wells

02-25-10, 09:52 AM	#20
oscar19681 Admiral Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: netherlands Posts: 2,020 Downloads: 119 Uploads: 0	Quote: Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat "Dangerous Waters" featured realistic playable submarines, ASW aircrafts and ASW vessels. How many players bought that? Obviously not enough for Sonalyst to continue the series. The problem with dangerous waters is , although its a real hard-core subsim (which is maybe also a factor to not be succesful for the casual gamer) the trade off for this was that the grafics where hoplelessly outdated since it was based upon 688i hunter/killer and thats a game from 1997. I mean even for the day it was releases the grafics where seriouly lacking. It also serioully lacked even the most normal animations ( the ships screws didnt even stop when ordered full stop etc etc) __________________ we live we die but death does not ends it. Jim Morrison 1943-1971

02-25-10, 10:11 AM	#22
Heretic Commodore Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Nebraska Posts: 617 Downloads: 240 Uploads: 2	I don't think it's realistic to expect other, smaller companies, to get into this. They're not immune from the same market realities that UBI faces. The Silent Hunter engine has years of development in it, and whatever hardcore sim elements it has are a legacy of that. Any other company would be starting from scratch. They'd still need a product that's marketable to a larger audience, which means a large investment in graphics, sound, etc. All this, while trying to make a hardcore sim from the ground up? I'm sure many companies have looked at this genre, did the research, ran the numbers, and concluded the limited market just doesn't justify the expense. Development costs are only going to keep rising. I think it's more likely niche products will disappear entirely then be taken over by small companies with even fewer resources. The market only understands one virture - profit. __________________ - heretic I enjoy drinking beer. MightyFine Crew Mod 1.2.1 - Updated 22 March MightyFine Less Annoying Footsteps Crew AI Scripting Information

02-25-10, 10:29 AM	#23
scrapser Captain Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 530 Downloads: 12 Uploads: 0	I just did some quick reading overnight to familiarize myself with the current economics of developing computer games. I'm shocked. It has completely changed my perception of this industry. Right now I feel about the same as I did when Commodore-Amiga went bankrupt. I never thought I would feel that way again. __________________ Gaming Computer Specs: CM Stacker 930 DFI LP UT X58-T3eH8 i7 920 CPU TR 120 Extreme HS (lapped) 6 GB OCZ Platinum 1600 (8x175 = 1400) BFG GTX 295 Silverstone DA1000W PSU Sony GDM-FW900 24" Wide Screen CRT WinXP Pro 32-bit

02-26-10, 08:31 AM	#24
Furia Ensign Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 224 Downloads: 95 Uploads: 0	I am not an economist but I know that demand is not only the combination of the potential demand for a product but the demand you create while promoting your product. SHIII and SH IV were nice games but basically single player ones. They missed the exciting, challenging and attractive mp mode where humen players could defend a convoy while others in subs tried to sink them. For me, SH II vs DC were the peak and gold age of submarine computer simulation. We do not need a stand alone DC game, maybe that one would not sell enough, but I am almost certain that a SH V expansion including 1 type of escort, fully controllable by humans (And I do not mean the charade of SH IV "human controlled escort") would surely bring life, continuity, activities, MP competition and afterall SALES. No matter how advanced and scripted the AI is, for me they would never match the thrill of hunting and sinking human controlled ships. Is there any chance the SH saga has a future this MUST enclose the posibility of commanding as well an escort. Not as stand alone game but as an expansion of SHV plus other stuff. I am sure that one would sell good enough and would give SHV life and renown to continue for many years. You do not need a new engine or new game. Just create 1 escort type under the same game. LOL they already even have the 3D external model. Just pick up one escort type and create the art interiors and interfaces. SH saga would NEVER be the same without a controlled human escort to play MP combats. Fighting AI is boring after some months. I would surely purchase such expansion. lol I would even preordered now __________________ Peace and freedom are not free.

02-26-10, 09:01 AM	#26
himlaviz Mate Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 55 Downloads: 28 Uploads: 0	I would like to see a simulation like Silent Hunter 5 to have a long term support and development with new content and fixes. If that means we have to buy our II, IX and XXI through DLC that is so popular now I would be happy to pour some more $$ ubisoft/devs way. Additional subs = smaller cheap DLC. Campaign beyond 1943 and new features = larger DLC. "Destroyer Command" and new features = larger DLC. Pacific Theatre = full addon with content and new features. Additional pacific subs = small cheap DLC. Same base game that will get improvements and perhaps utilize new technology when the addon is released and it will have a longer lifetime, maybe 6-8 years. Isn't IL-2 a good example of this? __________________ This is my computer. There are many like it but this one is mine. My computer is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life. Without me, my computer is useless. Without my computer I am useless.

02-26-10, 10:48 AM	#27
Stormfly Serial Port Protector Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 1,424 Downloads: 370 Uploads: 0	Steam inform us that SH5 coms also with that "Adversial Mode" included... "Multiplayer Mode Play in cooperative or adversarial modes in scripted and generated missions." I just wonder if this is: - the same crap SH4 had ? - is it maybe a typo by copying older SH4 features ? - is it maybe the same crap from SH4 but got a bit of improvement ? - would our dream come true and we get a full controlable escort with manual controlabale DC (setting depth), hedgehogs, a virtual 3D bridge together with full operational sonar & radar stations ? __________________ Stormy......