World War II-era navigation system shutting down - Page 2

krashkart · 02-09-10, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

Bah, anyone knows that if you sail out of sight of land and birds then the monsters of the deep will get you.

Remember not to sail too far, either. Ye falls off the edge of the Earth and lands in one of those Axis of Evil countries!

Quote:

Originally Posted by razark

But that would mean that people would need to know what they're doing! Can't expect people to actually know how to do things. If it can't be done with the push of a button, it's impossible.

Betcha there would still be enough people around who know the ancient ways. Does the Air Force still shoot the stars from time to time? I remember my grandad telling me about how he did that when he was in.

razark · 02-09-10, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by krashkart

Betcha there would still be enough people around who know the ancient ways. Does the Air Force still shoot the stars from time to time? I remember my grandad telling me about how he did that when he was in.

Yeah, and some of us use slide rules instead of calculators. I decided that even though there was a more modern tool, I like the feel of using an older one. They were good enough to get us to the moon and back.

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_navigation:

Quote:

The U.S. Air Force and U.S. Navy continued instructing military aviators on its use until 1997, because:

* it can be used independently of ground aids
* has global coverage
* cannot be jammed (although it can be obscured by clouds)
* does not give off any signals that could be detected by an enemy

The US Naval Academy announced that it was discontinuing its course on celestial navigation, considered to be one of its most demanding courses, from the formal curriculum in the spring of 1998 stating that a sextant is accurate to a three-mile (5 km) radius, while a satellite-linked computer can pinpoint a ship within 60 feet (18 m). Presently, midshipmen continue to learn to use the sextant, but instead of performing a tedious 22-step mathematical calculation to plot a ship's course, midshipmen feed the raw data into a computer.

Of course, the Apollo missions used star trackers and sextants to help guide them to the moon as well.

Jimbuna · 02-09-10, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

Bah, anyone knows that if you sail out of sight of land and birds then the monsters of the deep will get you.

Simply take plenty of batteries for the torch

Oberon · 02-09-10, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Simply take plenty of batteries for the torch

What do gun batteries have to do with torches? Everyone knows that sticks with fabric wrapped around the top dipped in pitch have everything to do with torches

Cohaagen · 02-12-10, 03:33 PM

I agree with the folks saying "cheerio" to LORAN. If you trust terrestrial nav above a system which floats entirely indifferent to just about every variable outside of the occasional position adjustment, more fool you. The commercial GPS systems are so good (despite statutory hobbling by the US military) that I really can't see how anyone could be nostalgic. In my own (limited) experience, I can't think of a single Peterhead, Broch, Irish Sea or Arbroath boat which doesn't use GPS as its primary navaid.

It's a bit like the passing of the sextant I think - nice to read about in a Hornblower novel, but an absolute arsehole to use from a pitching deck.

krashkart · 02-12-10, 03:37 PM

Guess I hadn't thought about it from an applied perspective. Then again, I don't have that perspective at all, being landlocked.

Platapus · 02-12-10, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cohaagen

I agree with the folks saying "cheerio" to LORAN. If you trust terrestrial nav above a system which floats entirely indifferent to just about every variable outside of the occasional position adjustment, more fool you. The commercial GPS systems are so good (despite statutory hobbling by the US military) that I really can't see how anyone could be nostalgic. In my own (limited) experience, I can't think of a single Peterhead, Broch, Irish Sea or Arbroath boat which doesn't use GPS as its primary navaid.

It's a bit like the passing of the sextant I think - nice to read about in a Hornblower novel, but an absolute arsehole to use from a pitching deck.

The point is that GPS can be knocked out or otherwise interfered with in times of war. If there is no back up nav aids, this puts operations at risk.

I don't think anyone is saying that GPS should not be a primary navaid, but some are saying that GPS should not be the exclusive navaid.

Cohaagen · 02-12-10, 04:33 PM

Right, so you're advocating the "survivability", a paranoid concept at best - this is presuming World War III, yeah? - of a terrestrial system over something floating in space? In that scenario (and it's the only credible or likely one) it's a question of which one outlasts the other by minutes or seconds.

The main problem with GPS is not damage from the - count them - three nations who possess the capability to disrupt them, but from the US military circumscribing civilian use in the event of a major conflict - as they have every right to do. I do know that there has supposedly been a civilian-developed LORAN follow-up in the works for the last two decades or so, but I haven't heard anything more on the matter. And as has been mentioned, it is a nightmare to deal with.

Fact remains (in the UK at least), anyone deemed competent enough to master a civil vessel is also bright enough to learn manual navigation. That is what keeps the 'droggies in business.

razark · 02-12-10, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cohaagen

Right, so you're advocating the "survivability", a paranoid concept at best - this is presuming World War III, yeah? - of a terrestrial system over something floating in space? In that scenario (and it's the only credible or likely one) it's a question of which one outlasts the other by minutes or seconds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kessler_syndrome

It's not just war, natural events could render satellites useless. Not saying it's likely, just good to have a backup, just in case.

Jimbuna · 02-13-10, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platapus

The point is that GPS can be knocked out or otherwise interfered with in times of war. If there is no back up nav aids, this puts operations at risk.

I don't think anyone is saying that GPS should not be a primary navaid, but some are saying that GPS should not be the exclusive navaid.

Quite....a total dependancy on one system can only lead to problems in the future.

02-13-10, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Don't forget your trusty compass

Can Dead Men Vote Twice? At Elections.
True Virgins Make Dull Companions. At Weddings.

02-12-10, 03:33 PM	#20
Cohaagen Frogman Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: UK Posts: 296 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	I agree with the folks saying "cheerio" to LORAN. If you trust terrestrial nav above a system which floats entirely indifferent to just about every variable outside of the occasional position adjustment, more fool you. The commercial GPS systems are so good (despite statutory hobbling by the US military) that I really can't see how anyone could be nostalgic. In my own (limited) experience, I can't think of a single Peterhead, Broch, Irish Sea or Arbroath boat which doesn't use GPS as its primary navaid. It's a bit like the passing of the sextant I think - nice to read about in a Hornblower novel, but an absolute arsehole to use from a pitching deck.

02-12-10, 03:37 PM	#21
krashkart Navy Seal Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 5,292 Downloads: 100 Uploads: 0	Guess I hadn't thought about it from an applied perspective. Then again, I don't have that perspective at all, being landlocked.

02-12-10, 04:33 PM	#23
Cohaagen Frogman Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: UK Posts: 296 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	Right, so you're advocating the "survivability", a paranoid concept at best - this is presuming World War III, yeah? - of a terrestrial system over something floating in space? In that scenario (and it's the only credible or likely one) it's a question of which one outlasts the other by minutes or seconds. The main problem with GPS is not damage from the - count them - three nations who possess the capability to disrupt them, but from the US military circumscribing civilian use in the event of a major conflict - as they have every right to do. I do know that there has supposedly been a civilian-developed LORAN follow-up in the works for the last two decades or so, but I haven't heard anything more on the matter. And as has been mentioned, it is a nightmare to deal with. Fact remains (in the UK at least), anyone deemed competent enough to master a civil vessel is also bright enough to learn manual navigation. That is what keeps the 'droggies in business.