sh5 pdf campaign overview here

[MercurySeven]

Well, you would have to be one hell of an uboot ace to win the war until '43.There is a limitation to how many ships per refill a sub can sink ...

I assume the outcome in certain battles can be influenced (like Malta) which might give you certain advantages, but the overall outcome is kind of hard to turn with the US and the SU pushing through.

Turning the war with subs would mean knocking out England (preferably before the US enters the war) and doing so would mean first cutting her of from her supplies. That only works when the numbers of uboots is right and the commanders are real aces. Since you are the only one that "changes history" here and certain aspects like sonar, radar and the enigma problem remain, the possible impact on the overall supplies is rather limited. *think*

[FIREWALL]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

If thats true, i have problems with that on a multiple levels. I'll bite my lip and stop there.

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Sorry, I find the 'change the war with a uboat' a bit weird. Are we re-writing history via a game?

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Influence the war I'm good with. Change the outcome...not a chance as stated.

They need to clear this up. Tho I doubt their makeing a Fantasy subsim.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Hey, man, did you know your lip is bleeding? You been biting it a lot or sumpin'?

Don't encourage me. I'm trying to be good. All i'm going to say, is if you can change the outcome of the war, this game will be a history revisionists wet dream come true.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by FIREWALL

They need to clear this up. Tho I doubt their makeing a Fantasy subsim.

OK.. fine.. I'll bite.

Too many people in this community, are so enthralled with the uboat romance, they are completely out of touch with historical perspective.

I'll give 3 quick examples.

1.) A patrol report someone wrote about U-181 during a wolves of war campaign some years ago. This user wrote in such a context that they were PROUDLY and DEFIANTLY flying the swaztika to the end.

2.) Another user putting the smiling happy german captain with the nazi flag superimposed in the background.

3.) another user posting a pic like this:
http://yoshi.backupot.com/Silent%20H...d%20Statue.png

So enthralled with the uboat romance, that the meaning behind that symbol has been completely erased. Nevermind the regieme, nor the what transpired in the war, nor the allied men, killed in the atlantic. No, instead just look at these poor uboat men in their epic struggle, these are the good guys!

The way people lament about them, you'd swear people wish they had won! And if you can change the outcome of the war in this dynamic campaign, now they finally have that chance. This is also the type of schitt neo nazi's, and any others who idolize the 3rd reich would jump at.

Don't get me wrong, theres nothing wrong with a Uboat sim, in and of itself, but too many people here take it entirely too far. I played SH3 for a few years, and i always tried to be mindful of the regieme behind it all. And here's a confesson. I, like other uboat fans, had at one point lost perspective. I realized that, when one day, towards the end of a career game, i found myself looking at the swaztika as a flag of a friendly nation. That bothered me alot, and it made me realize just how out of touch with reality this uboat romance is.

SO yea, if you can change the outcome of the war, i have problems with that on many levels.

[The Enigma]

It would have been a good thing if, at the end of a career, a short
resume was displayed what horror the Nazi's have caused.

That would put you back into reality again.

[The General]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Don't encourage me. I'm trying to be good. All i'm going to say, is if you can change the outcome of the war, this game will be a history revisionists wet dream come true.

This won't be the first time that has a happened. For just one example; Phillip K. Dick wrote a story about an alternative reality where The Axis powers won WWII. I don't think SH5 is even the first game to do this.

I like the sound of this new campaign. In SH3-4 I never liked the fact that, once you sunk one of the big battleships, you could encounter the same BB again and again. You felt that you were accomplishing nothing after a while.

[FIREWALL]

Simply, I want it historical. Fantasy can be modded in by a users own taste which, has been done on past sub sims.

[onelifecrisis]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

If thats true, i have problems with that on a multiple levels. I'll bite my lip and stop there.

Originally Posted by Iron Budokan

Wow. That's just....wow.

I'm speechless if this is true.

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Sorry, I find the 'change the war with a uboat' a bit weird. Are we re-writing history via a game?

So you guys think that the U-boats made no difference? That if Germany had not sent any of them to war then everything would have panned out exactly the same anyway? Wow. Why on earth would you even be interested in playing a game that simulates the command of such useless vessels?

[THE_MASK]

Hasnt anyone ever modded a campaign before . If they drop the DRM i dont see a problem in modding it .

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by FIREWALL

Simply, I want it historical. Fantasy can be modded in by a users own taste which, has been done on past sub sims.

Well i my impression is that the devs are talking about relativly minor alterations to the Battle of the Atlantic- not a total re-write of WW2 history.

You got to apprieciate that some events during of the Battle of atlantic were down to chance.
In SH3, you could potentially 'save the Bismark' but game thinks nothing of it. Were you to do that in SH5, maybe the Bismark would be used in another battle?
IMO Its no so far fetched that one U-boat can make a difference in this way, it potentially can if its in the right place at the right time.

WW2 has already played out and history is cast in stone, now how can you play that out in a sandbox game like silent hunter 5? 100% historical accucuracy is not really compatible with 'computer game' format in this way.

Players did unhistorical things in SH3, like raiding Ports, saving the bismark sinking ships that never got sunk in real life etc.
The only difference it that SH5 acknowledges these acts, where SH3 totally ignored them.
Yet SH3 is somehow deemed superior for it??

So long as we are not led to feel as though the Battle is being won by the Axis by 1943... I really dont see the problem.

[Sgtmonkeynads]

Originally Posted by FIREWALL

Simply, I want it historical. Fantasy can be modded in by a users own taste which, has been done on past sub sims.

I basically said the samething over at somewhere else...you know where. Guess what they(one of the mods I believe) told me ?
GO READ A BOOK !
I about went through the friggen roof man, I'm still steamed.

They just don't get it over there.

[utops]

I just want to survive and take credit for sunken tonage , that is all for me when i thinking about,some fiction it is not a problem in eg. if i get lucky to sink main unit of the home fleet , that unit is off.
So that unit is not longer operational and that impact on the campaign.
In future this particural ship do not acomplish mission. Some event because of this is diffirent and change a little shape of the frontline,but whole war? This is just ridiculous, but good material for those epic heroes wannabe rpg fans.

[Iron Budokan]

Originally Posted by onelifecrisis

So you guys think that the U-boats made no difference? That if Germany had not sent any of them to war then everything would have panned out exactly the same anyway? Wow. Why on earth would you even be interested in playing a game that simulates the command of such useless vessels?

Yes, Uboats had a severe economic impact on the Allies. History has proven this to be true.

NO, they didn't win the war. When a game has you winning the war, or affecting huge economic and materiel outcomes that are historically innaccurate, then it ceases to become a simulation and becomes a childish, cartoonish, arcade.

That's the difference.

[JU_88]

Hypothetical question for the 'historical' purists here...

Senario:
Your are playing SH3 and HMS Nelson passes in front of your scope
What do you do?

1) Attack as did the commander of U-31 (but! if you sink her, that event is 100% fantasy, Nelson was never sunk!.)

2) Ignore her for the sake of historical accuracy. (not what a real Uboat commander would have done under the circumstances)

The point is that history happened one way only and it cannot be undone, in a sandbox game with DYNAMIC campaign on the hand...
Do you see where Im going with this?
A Historically accurate computer game is not actually possible - unless you remove the players free will.
SH5 responds to that 'free will' is that a crime?

[Nisgeis]

Originally Posted by The General

This won't be the first time that has a happened. For just one example; Phillip K. Dick wrote a story about an alternative reality where The Axis powers won WWII.

Yes, The Man in the High Castle. In that book though, it was clearly pointed out that they were living in the 'wrong' reality and things should not have turned out that way. It also talked about the extermination of the Jews, so was not a fun thing to try to role play with.

Originally Posted by JU_88

Hypothetical question for the history purists here...

Senario:
Your are playing SH3 and HMS Nelson passes in front of your scope
What do you do?

1) Attack as did the commander of U-31 (but! if you sink her, that event is 100% fantasy, Nelson was never sunk!.)

2) Ignore her for the sake of historical accuracy. (not what a real Uboat commander would have done under the circumstances)

The point is History happened one way and it cannot be undone, in a sandbox game with DYNAMIC campaign on the hand...

Do you see where Im going with this?

Yes I do see, but that's not what people are complaining about. They are not complaining that they can sink ships that historically were never attacked by U-Boat. To make that stick, you'd have to stick rigidly to the original U-boats patrol, never deviating from it, including during attacks.

What some people are concerned about is that people can sail out, sink 2 million tons of shipping in a week with their deck gun in pew pew fashion and then RTB, get a little message saying how they have turned the tide and thinking 'Wow! I could have won the war for the Nazis! How tragic I wasn't born back then.'.

Other people are complaing that as a single instrument, the U-boats whilst being very effective initially, once counter measures were put in place, they ceased to be as potent and effective as they once were. Having a single captain (the player) being responsible for turning the tide of the war is... quite a stretch, unless tonnage figures are going to be pew pew excessive.