Simulations a dying breed... No says Paradox Interactive - Page 2

Sonarman · 08-26-09, 03:55 PM

It does make you wonder why Microsoft & Sony et al are so afraid of attaching a keyboard & mouse to their consoles to allow things like simulation games. Especially when you look back at the massive success of machines like the Amiga and C64 etc which provided a stable, level playing field for developers instead of the configuration nightmare of the modern PC. Do they really think that the addition of a keyboard & mouse would stop people buying consoles? They give their audience very little credit indeed.

Max2147 · 08-26-09, 04:17 PM

Simulations aren't dying off, they're just changing shape.

Before, simulations were designed by small developers, then distributed by big publishers like EA, Sierra, Ubi, and so on. The big publishers have moved on, but the small developers are still there. Instead of getting big publishers to distribute the game, they do it themselves now. The result is fewer copies sold, but also higher quality games.

For example, EA published a series of F1 sims made by ISI. When EA lost the F1 license, they cut ISI loose. ISI stayed together and made rFactor. Similarly, Papyrus made NASCAR sims for Sierra. When Sierra lost the NASCAR license, Papyrus became iRacing.com and produced their own sim.

Blacklight · 08-26-09, 04:27 PM

Attatching a keyboard would make it seem too complicated for their "target market".
I still think that simulation games are in a SERIOUS decline as the younger players seem to "prefer" first person shooters and simple action games. Every year, I see less and less hardcore simulations being released and more of that action crap for the attention deficite disordered non-thinkers being released to fill in the gap.
Most people, even the older gamers tend to gravitate toward those action, arcade type games. Of all my friends who I grew up gaming with, I can't name a single ONE who enjoys simulation games, yet they all LOVE their Playstation 3's and Xboxes to the point where using a PC to play a game doesn't even cross their radar.
MOST people today don't want to take the time to LEARN anything complex. I've seen a perfect NON-video game example of this as well over the past years. I've been to various game conventions (board and miniature wargames, Dungeons & Dragons and other RPG stuff, etc..) and the people there are all old like me. There is very few younger people coming in to fill in the gaps left by the older crowd because these games actually require you to do a LOT of reading to learn to play. You have to put EFFORT into learning the games. The first thing the people I know ask when I toss a game out on the table is "Am I going to have to think ?" which prompts me to just sigh and pull the game off the table and shove it back in it's box. Everything is so instant gratification now, that people are missing out on a LOT of rewarding and entertaining stuff !

The market is unfortunately following this "mindless game" trend that the people seem to want.

pozine · 08-26-09, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blacklight

Attatching a keyboard would make it seem too complicated for their "target market".
I still think that simulation games are in a SERIOUS decline as the younger players seem to "prefer" first person shooters and simple action games. Every year, I see less and less hardcore simulations being released and more of that action crap for the attention deficite disordered non-thinkers being released to fill in the gap.
Most people, even the older gamers tend to gravitate toward those action, arcade type games. Of all my friends who I grew up gaming with, I can't name a single ONE who enjoys simulation games, yet they all LOVE their Playstation 3's and Xboxes to the point where using a PC to play a game doesn't even cross their radar.
MOST people today don't want to take the time to LEARN anything complex. I've seen a perfect NON-video game example of this as well over the past years. I've been to various game conventions (board and miniature wargames, Dungeons & Dragons and other RPG stuff, etc..) and the people there are all old like me. There is very few younger people coming in to fill in the gaps left by the older crowd because these games actually require you to do a LOT of reading to learn to play. You have to put EFFORT into learning the games. The first thing the people I know ask when I toss a game out on the table is "Am I going to have to think ?" which prompts me to just sigh and pull the game off the table and shove it back in it's box. Everything is so instant gratification now, that people are missing out on a LOT of rewarding and entertaining stuff !

The market is unfortunately following this "mindless game" trend that the people seem to want.

I agree... well, i'm not a no-life
but i enjoy sims... It seems people can't make the difference..
When i talk of a sim with a friend ( not my best friends tough ) they see in me the little no-life... I'M NOT NO-LIFE :rotfl:

first subsim i bought : Silent Hunter 2, The Guy said : Here's the big book for the hard sub game... I was like, : Cool

Time And Effort that's the solution for sims

All my friends play their Xbox and PS3... Fallout3, Oblivion, Fable2 CoD4, Battlefield Series...
forgotten many good action games. Yep they are good, i like them exept CoD4...
They see a sim they say : Uhhh

bad graphics=bad game
Hard and long learning= BAd game really bad game... BORING!

I really hate people like that, it seems they can't use their brain like normal people...

I used many minutes to write this

GoldenRivet · 08-26-09, 05:56 PM

my preference is for PC based games, I play almost no console based games despite owning a wii and xbox.

the wii - purchased for nothing more than drunken party entertainment.

the xbox - for visits from the niece, nephew and occasionally the brother and law and myself will play NFL Fever or something.

i would estimate that 97% of my gaming is limited to PC only.

and of that percentage of PC gaming... 90% falls within the simulation genre

Task Force · 08-26-09, 06:16 PM

I myself dont like a good FPS from time to time... but simulators are what I mainly play... I find simulators are the only way to do things you would want to do... but never have to DO them... would I ever be able to command a submarine in real life... no... but in a sim I can from the safty of my own chair...

Blacklight · 08-26-09, 07:06 PM

Quote:

I really hate people like that, it seems they can't use their brain like normal people...

You forget. THEY are the norm and WE'RE the abnormal ones. Just look at the number of people who prefer "mindless action games" compared to the numbers who like games you have to "work" to learn. WE'RE the wierdos.

Task Force · 08-26-09, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Contact

Simulations are ussually made not for kids. Shooters, arcade, racing games are toys for kids deffinetly. But they won't be kids forever and I think with the age, the taste for games also changes, that is when it's a time for starting to know the simulations.

I dont know about that... I see alot of people who arnt kids playing a stupid bunch of mindless fps games... EX those COD games...

bookworm_020 · 08-26-09, 09:08 PM

If they make a decent game, people will buy it. It doesn't matter what it's background is, if appeals to the masses, and is marketed well, it should succeed.

Arclight · 08-27-09, 02:30 AM

They're not exactly dying. We've been blessed with the DCS series, which should continue to expand for years to come, and HoI3 and Rise of Flight aren't doing too bad at the moment: http://kotaku.com/5345628/pc-sales-c...s-are-in-order

08-27-09, 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Task Force

I dont know about that... I see alot of people who arnt kids playing a stupid bunch of mindless fps games... EX those COD games...

I also like to splash around with COD at multiplayer just for venting from time to time. But quickly it gets boring and I'm back to SH3

danlisa · 08-27-09, 05:27 AM

Like many others here I won't say that the Sim market is dead, yet.

Regardless of our beliefs on the subject, developers are in the business to make a profit and PC exclusive Simulations are not turning out the figures to sustain the market indefinitely. TBH with you, the main reason for this is the longevity of these Sim titles and in part the moddability of each Sim, while initially boosting sales, does nothing but hurt the following title in a series.

We all live in a disposable society and games are becoming more and more disposable along with it. As such developers and production studios have realised where the money is and are moving over in their droves. For example; the SH series has sold 1.5 million copies in it's lifetime but a single console game will sell that in 1 weekend (if not a single day).

Which brings me nicely onto the subject of consoles.

For the mature Sim gamers, you lot don't half moan about consoles killing off PC games and yet by your own admissions the consoles don't cater for your genre of game. So what's the problem?

Personally, as I lack the available free time to devote to PC games at the moment, my console sees most of my time and why not, I can switch it on and be in game within 40secs, do anything I currently do on my PC, I don't have to worry about whether my hardware can run the game and I don't have constantly moan about DRM.
As for being a mindless console gamer who enjoys the l33t games like CoD4

(not really but it's a good example) I feel the stereotype being plastered around Subsim to be a little offensive and borne of a small mind, but what should I suspect from a PC based forum, oh that's right exactly what I would read from a console based forum. Tit for tat! I don't bracket myself into a PC or Console only choice, why should you be so bigoted to do the same.

Now, moving on. If you are all so keen for the Sim genre to last and have a bright future you should be asking the developers to consider console variations of their titles. Both the PS3 and XBox are capable of running Sims when properly coded and the PS3 does support KEYBOARD & MOUSE input (know what you are talking about please). The large production studios have realised that to make serious money (which in turn boosts the genre) the consoles must be considered when developing games, the Sim market should adapt if they want to survive and be profitable.

Skybird · 08-27-09, 07:08 AM

The wrote and repoprted about the Games convention in cologne, showing a trend towards "femalised" games like the sim People series, and "qactive sports" gaqmes like for the Wii. These are seen as the trendsetters. while brutal games and shooters still are present, they said they are loosing in market shares and are not as dominant anymore as they once have been. Social gaming with fun- and sports-games they claim to be the current thing.

While I see some hints for this being true, I wonder if it really is a valid and objective opbservation - or just PC-wishful thinking. Hard to say. but the trend that more and more girls and women take on games that match their taste cannot be overlooked indeed - it is real. also the trend that gaming in general becomes acceptable for higher age groups and wider social groups in general. and this is especially due to - consoles, like it or not.

stabiz · 08-27-09, 07:15 AM

Racing sims are not doing all bad at the moment, the new massive (and costly) racing training tool iRacing, and soon we will see rFactor 2. (Joy, joy, joy, joy)

Task Force · 08-27-09, 09:20 AM

Is it just me or in the long run consoles are more expensive in the long run... with a pc all I have to do is just add a bit every once in a while...

08-26-09, 03:55 PM	#16
Sonarman The Old Man Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ayr,Scotland,UK Posts: 1,392 Downloads: 79 Uploads: 0	It does make you wonder why Microsoft & Sony et al are so afraid of attaching a keyboard & mouse to their consoles to allow things like simulation games. Especially when you look back at the massive success of machines like the Amiga and C64 etc which provided a stable, level playing field for developers instead of the configuration nightmare of the modern PC. Do they really think that the addition of a keyboard & mouse would stop people buying consoles? They give their audience very little credit indeed. __________________ "The action is simulated...the excitement is real!" Microprose Simulation Software.

08-26-09, 04:27 PM	#18
Blacklight Ocean Warrior Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Connecticut Posts: 2,507 Downloads: 145 Uploads: 0	Attatching a keyboard would make it seem too complicated for their "target market". I still think that simulation games are in a SERIOUS decline as the younger players seem to "prefer" first person shooters and simple action games. Every year, I see less and less hardcore simulations being released and more of that action crap for the attention deficite disordered non-thinkers being released to fill in the gap. Most people, even the older gamers tend to gravitate toward those action, arcade type games. Of all my friends who I grew up gaming with, I can't name a single ONE who enjoys simulation games, yet they all LOVE their Playstation 3's and Xboxes to the point where using a PC to play a game doesn't even cross their radar. MOST people today don't want to take the time to LEARN anything complex. I've seen a perfect NON-video game example of this as well over the past years. I've been to various game conventions (board and miniature wargames, Dungeons & Dragons and other RPG stuff, etc..) and the people there are all old like me. There is very few younger people coming in to fill in the gaps left by the older crowd because these games actually require you to do a LOT of reading to learn to play. You have to put EFFORT into learning the games. The first thing the people I know ask when I toss a game out on the table is "Am I going to have to think ?" which prompts me to just sigh and pull the game off the table and shove it back in it's box. Everything is so instant gratification now, that people are missing out on a LOT of rewarding and entertaining stuff ! The market is unfortunately following this "mindless game" trend that the people seem to want. __________________ Be my friend or be a mushroom cloud. "I am coming at you. You will explode in a couple of minutes !" Last edited by Blacklight; 08-26-09 at 04:38 PM.

08-26-09, 05:56 PM	#20
GoldenRivet Subsim Aviator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 8,726 Downloads: 146 Uploads: 0	my preference is for PC based games, I play almost no console based games despite owning a wii and xbox. the wii - purchased for nothing more than drunken party entertainment. the xbox - for visits from the niece, nephew and occasionally the brother and law and myself will play NFL Fever or something. i would estimate that 97% of my gaming is limited to PC only. and of that percentage of PC gaming... 90% falls within the simulation genre __________________

08-26-09, 06:16 PM	#21
Task Force Rear Admiral Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: SPACE!!!! Posts: 10,142 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	I myself dont like a good FPS from time to time... but simulators are what I mainly play... I find simulators are the only way to do things you would want to do... but never have to DO them... would I ever be able to command a submarine in real life... no... but in a sim I can from the safty of my own chair... __________________ Task Force industries "Taking control of the world, one mind at a time"

08-26-09, 09:08 PM	#24
bookworm_020 Navy Seal Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Sinking ships off the Australian coast Posts: 5,966 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	If they make a decent game, people will buy it. It doesn't matter what it's background is, if appeals to the masses, and is marketed well, it should succeed. __________________ "There is always one person in any organization who knows whats going on, That person must be fired"

08-26-09, 04:17 PM	#17
Max2147 Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 714 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Simulations aren't dying off, they're just changing shape. Before, simulations were designed by small developers, then distributed by big publishers like EA, Sierra, Ubi, and so on. The big publishers have moved on, but the small developers are still there. Instead of getting big publishers to distribute the game, they do it themselves now. The result is fewer copies sold, but also higher quality games. For example, EA published a series of F1 sims made by ISI. When EA lost the F1 license, they cut ISI loose. ISI stayed together and made rFactor. Similarly, Papyrus made NASCAR sims for Sierra. When Sierra lost the NASCAR license, Papyrus became iRacing.com and produced their own sim.

08-27-09, 02:30 AM	#25
Arclight Navy Seal Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Land of windmills, tulips, wooden shoes and cheese. Lots of cheese. Posts: 8,467 Downloads: 53 Uploads: 10	They're not exactly dying. We've been blessed with the DCS series, which should continue to expand for years to come, and HoI3 and Rise of Flight aren't doing too bad at the moment: http://kotaku.com/5345628/pc-sales-c...s-are-in-order __________________ Contritium praecedit superbia.

08-27-09, 05:27 AM	#27
danlisa Navy Seal Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Cornwall, UK Posts: 5,499 Downloads: 45 Uploads: 1	Like many others here I won't say that the Sim market is dead, yet. Regardless of our beliefs on the subject, developers are in the business to make a profit and PC exclusive Simulations are not turning out the figures to sustain the market indefinitely. TBH with you, the main reason for this is the longevity of these Sim titles and in part the moddability of each Sim, while initially boosting sales, does nothing but hurt the following title in a series. We all live in a disposable society and games are becoming more and more disposable along with it. As such developers and production studios have realised where the money is and are moving over in their droves. For example; the SH series has sold 1.5 million copies in it's lifetime but a single console game will sell that in 1 weekend (if not a single day). Which brings me nicely onto the subject of consoles. For the mature Sim gamers, you lot don't half moan about consoles killing off PC games and yet by your own admissions the consoles don't cater for your genre of game. So what's the problem? Personally, as I lack the available free time to devote to PC games at the moment, my console sees most of my time and why not, I can switch it on and be in game within 40secs, do anything I currently do on my PC, I don't have to worry about whether my hardware can run the game and I don't have constantly moan about DRM. As for being a mindless console gamer who enjoys the l33t games like CoD4 (not really but it's a good example) I feel the stereotype being plastered around Subsim to be a little offensive and borne of a small mind, but what should I suspect from a PC based forum, oh that's right exactly what I would read from a console based forum. Tit for tat! I don't bracket myself into a PC or Console only choice, why should you be so bigoted to do the same. Now, moving on. If you are all so keen for the Sim genre to last and have a bright future you should be asking the developers to consider console variations of their titles. Both the PS3 and XBox are capable of running Sims when properly coded and the PS3 does support KEYBOARD & MOUSE input (know what you are talking about please). The large production studios have realised that to make serious money (which in turn boosts the genre) the consoles must be considered when developing games, the Sim market should adapt if they want to survive and be profitable. __________________

08-27-09, 07:08 AM	#28
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,609 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	The wrote and repoprted about the Games convention in cologne, showing a trend towards "femalised" games like the sim People series, and "qactive sports" gaqmes like for the Wii. These are seen as the trendsetters. while brutal games and shooters still are present, they said they are loosing in market shares and are not as dominant anymore as they once have been. Social gaming with fun- and sports-games they claim to be the current thing. While I see some hints for this being true, I wonder if it really is a valid and objective opbservation - or just PC-wishful thinking. Hard to say. but the trend that more and more girls and women take on games that match their taste cannot be overlooked indeed - it is real. also the trend that gaming in general becomes acceptable for higher age groups and wider social groups in general. and this is especially due to - consoles, like it or not. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

08-27-09, 07:15 AM	#29
stabiz Silent Hunter Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Norway Posts: 4,224 Downloads: 14 Uploads: 0	Racing sims are not doing all bad at the moment, the new massive (and costly) racing training tool iRacing, and soon we will see rFactor 2. (Joy, joy, joy, joy) __________________

08-27-09, 09:20 AM	#30
Task Force Rear Admiral Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: SPACE!!!! Posts: 10,142 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	Is it just me or in the long run consoles are more expensive in the long run... with a pc all I have to do is just add a bit every once in a while... __________________ Task Force industries "Taking control of the world, one mind at a time"