$700 Billion bailout package???? Are they that stupid?

[DeepIron]

Anytime the Germans, French, Japanese or anyone else for that matter, want to step up and assume the "World center stage", go for it... It's all too easy to a be a critic when your not the one in the spotlight...

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by DeepIron

Anytime the Germans, French, Japanese or anyone else for that matter, want to step up and assume the "World center stage", go for it... It's all too easy to a be a critic when your not the one in the spotlight...

I am not saving these countries from criticism, and my posting record shows that. But what is at issue here, is a problem made in america in the main. Also, what you say about world centre stage is no excuse - you are claiming that world centre stage but overstretch yourself by doing so. and still you claim the role of the knight in shining armour, and that you distribute more to the world than the World gives back to you. That is simply an erratic calculation. If that hurt'S America'S ego, I cannot help it, but I stick to that. I do not see any country or block being able to afford claiming the world cnetre cposiition all by itself, andn that may be the reason why more and more scientists describe the future to be not a unipolar one, like america wants it to be, but a multipolar one. that means it will be ore dangerous, and more chaotic indeed. But it canot be helped: i simply is the most realistic assessement. If the whole world needs to imncreasingly pay for america's egoism to keep itself as the only cnetral figure of world domination installed, then this is a deal that calculates even worse than having a multipolar world and needing to compete with other global players as well, imo. The American model simply has become too expensive and too deficitary.

also, your country is in the spotlight because it wants to dominate unilaterally. You want the fame, you want the power- you have to accept the cameras as well. If you would not affect all us others so massievely, we would not care for oyu that much. logical, eh? It is our most reasonable, natural self-interest to keep you under as tight monitoring as possible. If you fail, the mess is raining down on us as well. American consequences are global consequences.

[DeepIron]

C'mon... greed and stupidity aren't limited to the US. Don't you think for a moment that the economies of other nations are intertwined with that of the US just for a "warm and fuzzy" feeling... Same kind of issues can apply to any economic system, in any country. Want to live in Zimbabwe right now?

If you fail, the mess is raining down on us as well. American consequences are global consequences.

Yep... so true. But then again, I can't help but wonder how the EU would manage if Russia ceased its gas and oil exports either...

[Skybird]

The energy policy of the EU - as that of the US since the oil crisis as well! - is highly questionable. True. - And both the EU and US energy policy are two completely different issues that have nothing, really nothing to do with hedge fonds, insane investement banking and the rejection of the US government to have a close enough look at Wall Street's fingerplays.

[DeepIron]

and the rejection of the US government to have a close enough look at Wall Street's fingerplays.

Well, there's the rub... a sword that cuts both ways when wielded...

Either the government pokes it's Federal nose into the private and business sectors, where, really, it has no business being (can you say "regulation"?) Or, it doesn't and allows capitalism to run it's course with whatever consequences result.

It's not the role of government to set prices on new homes for citizens... the housing market does that. Nor is it the governments job to examine and regulate every mortgage either. The current economic fiasco was driven by the private sector, an overzealous housing market and sub-prime lending schemes.

Wonderful citation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subprime_lending

Were there "shady goings on" in the banking and investment sectors? Perhaps... but who knows for sure right now. The troubling aspect for me at least is that my government want to bailout these failures and "save the world". Bosh...

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by DeepIron

Well, there's the rub... a sword that cuts both ways when wielded...

Either the government pokes it's Federal nose into the private and business sectors, where, really, it has no business being (can you say "regulation"?) Or, it doesn't and allows capitalism to run it's course with whatever consequences result.

It's not the role of government to set prices on new homes for citizens... the housing market does that. Nor is it the governments job to examine and regulate every mortgage either. The current economic fiasco was driven by the private sector, an overzealous housing market and sub-prime lending schemes.

Wonderful citation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subprime_lending

Were there "shady goings on" in the banking and investment sectors? Perhaps... but who knows for sure right now. The troubling aspect for me at least is that my government want to bailout these failures and "save the world". Bosh...

It is the government'S job to release rules for traffic regulation, to rise a police controlling that these rules are obeyed by everybody, to assess risks to the public interest and limit them by according rules like speed limits etc., and to bring to penalty those who do not comply with these rules. I do not buy this nightmare of a free unregulated market America is dreaming off (wrongly dreams off, since it is one of the most regulated and protected economies in thr world ) that is nothing more than a lethal gladiators fight between determined egoists who bring us nothing than monopolism and the unlegitimiated power coming from that once monopoles have been acchieved. Free market mechanism as you demand it just brought us to where we are, because the absence of rules that must be obeyed by everybody is nothing else but anarchy where the law of the jungle rules. And now you demand even more of it...? It seems the pain still is not big enough for you, then. Well, lets wait a while. The show we currently enjoy will keep on running for a longer time to come, no matter wether we like it or not.

[DeepIron]

The Golden Rule: He who has the gold, makes the rules.

Free market mechanism as you demand it just brought us to where we are, because the absence of rules that must be obeyed by everybody is nothing else but anarchy where the law of the jungle rules.

So what? I'd say it's naive to think that it's otherwise SB. It won't matter a wet slap if ALL of the worlds governments all got together and agreed on "The Rulz". Greed will always find it's way in. Greed and avarice will always corrupt good men, including those whom we empower. Your not going to find a utopian ideal where "rules must be obeyed by everybody". Sorry, too Orwellian for my tastes...

I say, let the law of the jungle prevail! Capitalism is ruthless. I can't think of a single company that went into business to break even or operate at a loss... Companies want to operate in the black... There's little "morality" anymore in business, whether on the part of government or otherwise. Crush the little guy and "grab with both hands and make a stash" to quote Pink Floyd...

[joegrundman]

Originally Posted by DeepIron

The Golden Rule: He who has the gold, makes the rules.

So what? I'd say it's naive to think that it's otherwise SB. It won't matter a wet slap if ALL of the worlds governments all got together and agreed on "The Rulz". Greed will always find it's way in. Greed and avarice will always corrupt good men, including those whom we empower. Your not going to find a utopian ideal where "rules must be obeyed by everybody". Sorry, too Orwellian for my tastes...

I say, let the law of the jungle prevail! Capitalism is ruthless. I can't think of a single company that went into business to break even or operate at a loss... Companies want to operate in the black... There's little "morality" anymore in business, whether on the part of government or otherwise. Crush the little guy and "grab with both hands and make a stash" to quote Pink Floyd...

this assumes that finance companies' debt won't be picked up by the taxpayer. The entire calculus you describe is distorted when the financial institutions believe there failures are covered.

When they keep their profits, but you pay their losses, excessive risk-taking is to be expected

So you have two choices (other than to accept paying their vast periodic bills for them, and in effect subsidise their wealthy lifestyles and taxpayer expense)

a) Do not underwrite their debts and accept that they may periodically screw up the finance system which could even lead to international financial troubles
b) regulate them, which may reduce some of their profitability in the good days.

[GlobalExplorer]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

Here is for all the Atheists - This is due to people turning their back on god by the way.

The question is which one, the Christian god, the mighty Allah, Krishna of the Hindu or the Great Bear of the Innuit?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by DeepIron

The Golden Rule: He who has the gold, makes the rules.

So what? I'd say it's naive to think that it's otherwise SB. It won't matter a wet slap if ALL of the worlds governments all got together and agreed on "The Rulz". Greed will always find it's way in. Greed and avarice will always corrupt good men, including those whom we empower. Your not going to find a utopian ideal where "rules must be obeyed by everybody". Sorry, too Orwellian for my tastes...

I say, let the law of the jungle prevail! Capitalism is ruthless. I can't think of a single company that went into business to break even or operate at a loss... Companies want to operate in the black... There's little "morality" anymore in business, whether on the part of government or otherwise. Crush the little guy and "grab with both hands and make a stash" to quote Pink Floyd...

Fan-tas-tic reply.

[Blacklight]

Here is for all the Atheists - This is due to people turning their back on god by the way. With that, goes the morals since every man is left to his own devices to create his own morals (Chaos). 'No' morals is the result. Greed rules. When greed rules, you have issues. One being the lenders greed to shell out loans that they know are extremely risky. The other is on the consumer side in that the consumer is greedy and buys more house than they can afford to try and make a buck.

Lets not bring religion into this. This has nothing to do with religion nor would religion have stopped this crap. This is simple corporate greed that has been with us since the dawn of man. This is the bank version of ENRON.
Wherever there's huge chunks of cash to be made.. people are going to find ways to exploit it to line their pockets.
I personally think some arrests should be made.... a LOT of arrests.

First off... the world is full of greedy corporate types, and seccondly, we have a culture of stuped, thinking for now and not later corporations AND consumers. That's what got us into this mess.

The whole bailout thing just REALLY pisses me off. These banks should be held accountable. Not given more cash for their CEO's and the upper echelon guys to line their pockets more because we all know that that's exaclty where this bailout is going to go. Into their pockets and overseas.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by Blacklight

The whole bailout thing just REALLY pisses me off. These banks should be held accountable. Not given more cash for their CEO's and the upper echelon guys to line their pockets more because we all know that that's exaclty where this bailout is going to go. Into their pockets and overseas.

Oh ho! I think it is going far worse places than that. It's going into the national debt as well. You might as well just print 700 billion dollars and destroy the currency.

If the banks had to figure a way out of this mess, the loss would not be so great. Some of those high-risk loans could still be bought if the borrowers had good history of payment with their loan. People who did default would have their homes foreclosed and liquidated by the bank, recouping at least some of the loss.

But when the government steps in and assumes liability for all "assets", it directly translates into inflated money supply. Banks limit their inflation of the money supply by balancing assets and liability, and also invest heavily in generally sound venues, thus generating wealth both for the bank and for those they invest in, in the form of company growth and jobs. A little borrowed is offset by a little lent and a wise investment policy. And if they fail, they die. Sucks to be them but whatever.

Government control of these failed companies assets basically transforms all of these near-currency assets into real currency. They might as well print "legal tender for all debt, public and private" on it.

Now we are really fecked because that money makes ours worth less, and there will never be any salvageable loans. Even if they somehow make a profit, they would eat it all up in administration costs or devote it to another program.

One way or another, the execs are going to have golden parachutes, the plutocratic nature of government-heavy business is going to ensure that. But what they steal is a pin***** compared to what the state is about to thrust upon us.

And they'll ultimately be the only ones laughing all the way to the bank.

[DeepIron]

My wife ran across this video on MSNBC and I think it sums up very nicely in laymans terms how we got into this mess in the first place.

http://video.msn.com/video.aspx?mkt=...e-ce356526d204

[Skybird]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...579707,00.html

The global financial crisis could also have a stronger and lengthier impact on the German economy than previously believed. According to information obtained by SPIEGEL, the German government plans to reduce its forecast for economic growth in 2009 from 1.2 percent to 0.5 percent.

Thank you, but no thanks for that. Reducing that growth rate translates into thousands of jobs going KIA - the according families and workers paying the bill.

Meanwhile, in a small Gallic village resisting the Roman conquerers:

“You can have all the meetings you want,” this Republican said, referring to the White House session with Mr. Bush, the presidential candidates and Congressional leaders, still hours away. “It comes to the floor and the votes aren’t there. It won’t pass.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/26/bu...ss&oref=slogin

We also mourn another loss of a comrade in the financial network, Washington Mutual. You were the greatest bank in town, pal. Rest in pieces.

[Frame57]

The CEO's should be held accountable for this. They knew full well that they were issuing bogus loans to people who could not afford them. Let those companies fail... of course you have not heard of the Reverend Jackson and his antics to try to strongarm loan houses into providing loans to the "poor". Tough! If the poor cannot afford a loan then they should not have a loan. Solution: Get un-poor!