$700 Billion bailout package???? Are they that stupid?
 

Am I the only one that has an issue with this stupid idea? Our government is obviously screwed up beyond believe to even think of this idea!

And for what are we doing this exactly? We need some bank failures. I'd let the economy dip for a bit to let these banks feel the sting of stupidity.

Here is for all the Atheists - This is due to people turning their back on god by the way. With that, goes the morals since every man is left to his own devices to create his own morals (Chaos). 'No' morals is the result. Greed rules. When greed rules, you have issues. One being the lenders greed to shell out loans that they know are extremely risky. The other is on the consumer side in that the consumer is greedy and buys more house than they can afford to try and make a buck.

Welcome to our declining world. You can't save it either without a standard moral base and that only comes from one place. This is a world with a 'lack of standards' in the morals area, which ultimately leads to all the fighting you see throughout the world and and all the problems as well. Think of what a military would be like without standards? Now think of a world without god, which leads to many problems such as we are seeing.

Now watch the Atheists frothing mouths fling wide open! This will be entertaining. Problem is guys, if Darwin couldn't find a way to incorporate morals (let alone helping others with no personal gain) into his theories, neither can you (Two flaws in his theories right there that can debunk all of them outright some day). So tough luck beating that one back! :smug:

-S

WTF:-?

No. There are a lot of use who have an issue with it. There has been a lot of public sentiment against the bailouts. I'm close to either a) moving somewhere else or B) revolting because of it.

That does not encompass the whole issue. The reason these particular bank failures are going to hurt us so much is because federal backing of said banks and financial institutions allows them to make high-risk investments that private banks would not. I agree that they should fail, and that the economy will suffer because of it. What I doubt is that this will change anything. Once th U.S. recovers (more or less) from this fiscal crisis, it will probably pursue the same policy, and fail again. But that's politics. People want stuff for free, no surprise there. They want the State to give it to them. Many of them do not realize how this damages the economic system over time, so when their particular bank, which they foolishly invested in fails, they raise hue and cry, demanding that the state take action.
Ironically, many of these people do not vote, but legislators listen to their pleas to stay in office. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, so to speak.

As a libertarian I can't totally agree with that. Darwinism exists in both sociopolitical and moral spheres as well as nature (of course) and economics.
You cannot legislate or force people to conform to a certain set of morals. No nation in the history of mankind has ever succeded at that. It simply cannot be done.

But what you can do is let those with poor morals, and poor competitive(greedy) practices fail. As long as competition is preserved the consumers will not stand for harmful business practices. They simply vote out the offending entity with their dollars. Some suffer from those type of businesses. Caveat Emptor. It is up to those of us who believe in helping others to shoulder their debt at our expense.
Isn't that the Christian way?

We already know what militaries without standards are like. They run rampant all over the world. Arguably, they have for most of history. Just look at Africa.

I would not argue that are world is declining, but it is merely following a cycle. People make the same decisions over and over again. History repeats itself. It isn't like we've never seen a world-leading superpower fighting for its life and facing economic disaster that eventually sparks a cataclysmic war before.

Don't forget that at one time there was a world that knew nothing but God (or whatever deities) and people suffered greatly. Even within the Catholic domains people were subjected to indescribable tortures and deprivation.
What finally freed the Western world from religious domination was the introduction of religious competition. The 95 theses changed the future of the Western world forever.

When you say God I assume that you mean God in the Christian context, but do not forget that many other cultures have a god, or gods, or whatever. Islamic extremism is fueled by a belief in a "one true god". Historically, Christianity has fallen into this theocratic trap as well. (ahem, Inquisition, Puritanism, Flagellants)

I will not argue that our world is heading into another historical low point. Every time a world leading nation makes irresponsible fiscal decision it leads to war. And every time, the wars get worse. And as such, the consequences get worse.
We are in the 11th hour now but the U.S. can still avoid this downfall and maybe help the rest of the world by strenthening the world economy via reduction of governemtn and reintroduction of a lightly-regulated private sector.

There is not, and never will be a 'standard moral base'. If I see a person who seems immoral, I will try to show them the Christian way. If they refute it, oh well, I tried. I cannot force my beliefs upon them and I doubt any religion (save Islamic Extremists, off the top of my head) would approve.



Easily beaten back. Friendship, social respect, power, love, these are all resources like any other. People compete over resources, just as animals do.
There is no real altruism , but people invest in things they want. Sometimes, they choose to invest in other people.
Who has ever invested time and money in a partner they did not want to form a relationship with unless it was out of fear of social repurcussions?
Who has ever given to charity and did not feel better for doing so?
Some people even pay for companionship in the form of escort services or prostitutes, but they would not do this unless they felt it was worth it.

People with good morals are more likely to value other people and their sentiments more than money or power, that much is true.

But no matter what kind of moral system one might try to impose, there will always be an elite. An elite that is willing to bend the system to their own ends, and justify to themselves the reason for doing so. Sometimes all they need to do is think of themselves as elite to become plutocratic tyrants. History is full of examples.

I would never advocate the merging of state and religion in any way, for any purpose because of these dangers, and that includes moral legislation.


That being said, I would certainly advocate legislation that prohibits any direct violations of others' freedoms. Things like 'indecent exposure', taking advantage of children in any way, fraud, theft, murder... things like that.

I am not a person of such intelligence as to decide what qualifies as an offense against personal freedom, but we did have some who made a decent attempt, once. They failed in certain respects, but their philosophy was fairly sound at the time, considering the issues they faced.

We should embrace their way of thinking; prohibitng the violation of personal freedoms by government or other citizens or external states.

I am far from an atheist, but I have respect for God's ability to design a system that will perpetually renew itself despite the failings of mortals. History is but a repetion of the same cycles in the same ways. War, peace, economic prosperity, economic decline, revolution, a shift in global power, war.....and so on and so forth.


Does the New Testament not teach tolerance and forgiveness? Have the U.S. and other free nations not prospered from such practices? Have those nations which do not embrace such philosophies not suffered?

From a religious perspective, the U.S. has sinned on many occasions, attempting to force beliefs upon others. But all these times goodwill was what motivated the American people to support such missives.

What we must do now is accept that sometimes the basic (constitutional) tenets of our society are rejected by some. We msut let them fail, then, so we do not harm ourselves and the future by allowing them to continue to exist beyond their means. And we must embrace this policy ourselves. If the U.S. follows the path of nations that have fallen before it we will fall as well.

From each according to his abilities, to each according to his abilites, and from each acoording to what they wish. There is no society that has not benefitted from such a policy, and such a policy can walk hand in hand with morality and religion if it so chooses.


Even if you choose to discount all of my arguments about tolerance, trade, and charity, there is no arguing that theocratic states always fail catastrophically in the end. There is no historical precedent to support this, period.


Morality is not something that one can control, and it has little to do with national prosperity. As long as the state enforces policy that enables free trade, the sytem will work on its' cycle, gradually increasing prosperity. Should the state step in and mandate moral practices or business regulation, the state will fail from debt as it attempts to enforce such policies, not to mention that such policies will grow exponentially as people take advantage of the system and new legilastion is required to close the gaps (and open new ones).

If people choose to be immoral in trade or life, let them fail. It is their own fault. For the same reasons we would not support a bank bailout, we should not support enforcement of morality. In the end, both accomplish litte, and the result is the same.

Yes the ante is a bit higher now, but it's like a dude said. the rich get richer, and the poor have children.

Surely this is the apotheosis of Submanian thinking! It must be the atheists!:rotfl:

Greedy people aren't just "Evil" atheists , anyone remember these pair - They were "Good" Christians http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...56C0A961948260

Nominated for the "Most Stupid Comment of the Year" Award.

Some people would even circumcise their brain in order to not admit that it were arch-American economic ideals - lack of sufficient monitoring and regulation, and "leaving it to the market" - that created this crashdown. If now the lesson from it would be learned (I highly doubt it in case of America) and more control mechanisms would get implemented to shield against this lack of responsibility and display of surreal greed, selfishness and short-sightedness - it would be these very same people complaining again about exactly these control mechnaism getting implemented.

I suggest Subman does like those "prayers for cheap petrol" did, travels to New York and starts praying at Wall Street. Judging by the recent temporary fall of gas prices, it works! :up:

And if it does not work - blame it on us evil, wicked, atheist, communist, european satanists again. It's all our fault, for the Dark Force is with us. :88) Oh where is Jesus when you really need him?

"share with thy next", "love thy next like yourself", "look after the weak and abandoned", "don't judge so that you shall not be judged" - you could be right. A communist, no doubt! :lol:

Some worth-to-know info on the US finance minister Henry Paulson - and why he might be so eager to pump 700 billion do9llars into the system. He was chief of Godlman Sachs until 2006, earned dozens of millions - and if saving the system now, he also saves his former employer, his buddies and colleagues - and his own private fortune.

Public office and private enterprise do not go well together.

http://www.focus.de/finanzen/doenchk...html?drucken=1 (German)

And this guy is trusted to save the world...? :rotfl: Well, I will become the next president of the US.

Don't forget that the high risk loans that created this little fiasco were only created because of government backing of financial institutions. The free market had little to do with it, other than many investors jumping on the federally-backed money-train. Can't blame them. They saw an opportunity and took it. That's what the market does, and why the state should have as little influence on the market as possible. Ensuring that all exchanges are voluntary and non-fradulent should be their main concern, not subsidizing, backing, or penalizing business.:nope:

You said it best.

Yep, G.W Buuuush just turn all atheist all of the sudden... Cause it was his idea you know? http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/images/icons/icon10.gif, well not quite I now., it was his buddies' in the administration idea, but you get the picture? ;)

If this keeps going one day Subman will reach critical mass his brain will implode...
He'll loose his faith in any god, shun the Republican party agressive economical policies and resurface as a good 4 nuthin' democrat, atheist and ecomentalist greenpeace member... And then CERN starts working again and destroys the Earth :rotfl:

:lol: :lol:
Commie pinko liberal freako and all that.;)

Absolutely, the prime function of state should be to legislate so that the courts can regulate private market.

But has for some services I really think the State should be responsible for some services, because it's the sate duty in my opinion, to keep it's citizens safe.

For instance, could you fathom a privatly managed US army? (I'm not talking about those private security/merc style corporations who've been getting n action in Iraq)
Or (and this is a more local form of government, but still is) the police, firemen? So how can a what seems to me basic service like healthcare be mostly privately owned like in the states?

I remember it different. Financial and economic statistics show america and americans do not save money, both private households and state do not save, but spend and consume like crazy instead. Credits for houses were given by banks to private persons without sufficient securities or saved money. Property prices went up, house owner could not pay the credit anymore, bank was left with foul credit, property priuces fell, et voila - a loss for the bank. Even more, the expectation that property prices would continue to go up until judgement day attracted gamblers and speculators, which invested and by that drove up the prices indeed and helped to crash the mortage market after the bancrupcty of housekeepers no longer able to pay. State regulation had nothing to do with it, but the free play of market forces led to surreal, irresponsible speculation and greed for more. Reasonable criterions and minimum own capital were not needed to get credit, and speculators were not kept in check. Free market is no cure for this - it is the cause of the mess.

I must say this is a mentality problem indeed. No other country in the industrialised word has a saving rate of households that tends to go towards zero. no other nation compares to this very bad habit.

Like private households, so the state. the state debts are aiming at ten trillion dollars already, that is a 1 with 13 zeroes. Yearly budgets are deficitary. the greatest national economy of the world - run by just five percent of global population - today makes three fifths of it's wealth not by a productive economy, but by financial transaction exclusively. as a side effect of that, many jobs had been exported. just 40% of the national income is coming from production of goods and either exporting them or consuming/selling them at home. Beyond that, america saves nothing from this national income, but consumes it, even more, 5% of global population not only consume all income from that biggest economy of which 3/5 are not productive anymore, but additionally consume 5-6% of the wealth created by the economies of the rest of the globe - and also completely consumes these without saving. A major share of the globe'S economic potential is busy with nothing else than feeding the inlimited hunger of America to consume: 5% of the population of this globe. That is total madness.

And this gluttony is the real problem for America - and for the globe. You simply consume more than you can produce and can pay for, and the debts rising for that reason and the habit of living on growing tic is what lead us to where we are, and it does growing damage to other economies as well which by that have to pay for you. The financial crisis and the way it was created and boosted artificially, is not the core of the issue - it is the symptom of the even deeper crisis behind it.

5-6% of the world's wealth outside america's economy is getting eaten up by America, and without compensation or producing something with it. It is wealth simply disappearing, not being invested and brought back into the circulation of wealth to create new productivity, at best it gets invested into more finacial trafficking opportunities. It's getting eaten up. - Now, if you only kill 5% of the yearly monetarian value trafficking through the american financial market, economists calculate, this would mean a critical shortage that would lead to a total collapse of the american economic and financial system, like your body must not lose all blood it holds to get you unconscious, but leaves you without consciousness long before you even have lost just half of your blood. A loss of 5% of the financial blood in america'S veins would already cause that unconsicousness, and mean a vital, life-threatening crisis. Just take eaway every 20th dollar from that - and your economy and financial markets are dead as dead can be. Total crash. Doomsday. Game over. Worst possible scenario. But you still raise your astronomical debts, and still you do not save any money, and still you mistake financial transaction and collecting the profit from that with a productive economy. but in fact 60% of your economy is producing nothing more than a process of moving bits and bytes from one database to another, and getting a fee or profit for that. That now is your existential basis!

America is in desperate need to learn not to live any longer beyond what it can afford and can pay for, and to learn how to economically manage it's national budget which it needs to come along with without borrowing even more money and without eating up even more global economic ressources that are not it's own. As long as this does not change, the crisis we have today will not find a final end, nor will it stop to live on, and even deepen. - If I have three thaler, and an apple costs one thaler, I can buy three apples. buying three leaves me with no reserves for other purposes. Buying three and leasing two more leaves me with debts. Doing this repeatedly leaves me with growing debts. I either distribute more newspapers so that I get payed with two additonal thalers plus X to pay for my debts I already made - or I buy less than three apples, not to increase my debts, and to pay off my existing debts.

really, that simple it is. It is common sense. Simple reasonability. Healthy management.

Instead we have foul and worthless state bonds getting pumped on the market, even more inflation, growing prices globally from that, and a stellar defense budget because america cannot let go anything of what it tries to keep for itself, even more it tries to claim more, and needs a higher defense budget which not really does justice to the description of a defense budget, since Iraq for exaple was a war of attack and a war of choice.

Putting all this together, america is the worst economic manager on the planet, and ruins itself and kills it's future chances by not knowing when enough is enough. and then comes some smarthead like Subman and accuses atheists to be the one to blame. How could one not burst into bitter grim laughter about all that.

Well, after all our exchanges of words recently you should know me a bit by now, so dont take my criticism as aimed against you personally. More and more we non-americans just loose a bit our patience with a political actor that America is, who does not seem to ever start asking critical questions about itself and if it's ways of going really are that wonderful for the world and even america itself, while that same world at the same time increasingly feels the negative effects of that system and increasingly has to pay for the blowbacks from it, and are expected to spend deficitary investements into keeping that system alive so that america must not change and can do business as usual, at everybody else's cost, and keep on living by taking more than it can compensate for by itself. As a country, you are not making yourself friends by continuing to behave like that, and the growing global anti-americanism is a clear indication for that and is directly linked to this - it is by far not just blind ideological hate and unfair greed for american wealth. It's that you are living at other nations' and peoples' cost - and that anti-americanism is caused by this, is just logical.

It all is like playing sim city, and not caring to develope in a way that your game money income can pay for the growth of your city, but using a God-cheat or a cheat for infinite money - it is cheating. In other words, America is a cheater. and although it enforced the unlimited money printing licence by getting the oil price linked to the dollar - it still is not enough and can't hold out with the money it gets, and consumes more and makes debts. That is gluttony indeed.