Are Japanese destoyers too good at detecting your sub??

[ddiplock]

Quite interesting though, as I remember in the very first Silent Hunter, the Japanese escorts would be pinging constantly, they wouldnt know you were there, but they would be pinging away non-stop. As you approached the convoy, you could hear the faint pings in the water, that would get louder the closer you got. For a game modelled in 1996, it was really well done

In truth, I think that's how they really did it. I know that in real life, British destroyers anyway when escorting convoys would constantly be using active ASDIC on the chance they'd detect a U-boat trying to penetrate the convoy.

[doulos05]

Really, for a surface ship, there's not reason for them not to ping the hell out of everything. Riding on the surface, their radar signature screams "SHOOT HERE!" and their bow wake, screws, machinery, etc makes so much noise that they aren't going to sneak up on anyone. Why not ping?

Personally, I like to slip in when the lead escort and the escort on whichever side I'm approaching from are both moving away from me. It's worked for me every time. Then again, I'm not running Trigger Maru

[SteamWake]

Originally Posted by ddiplock

radioed in its location

There is a mild hint here

[swdw]

There are several incidences in Theodore Roscoe's US Submarines in WWII of IJN DD's pinging for "no reason" other than that was the way they were performing their escort duty. Even read where a couple of the subs followed the pings to the convoy.

[Nicolas]

I made a post of this with the same question, but this one is more informative.
It seems they get you when they are close no matter if you are all stop periscope down, i will try the thermal layer thing, so if a DD is above you but your sub is past the layer you dont get detected?

[AKULA_71]

Even if you are useing auto-targeting, abuse the PK. With good data pluged into it you can submerge well under the thermal and let the destroyers run over your sub. Then it's a matter of poping up to 95ft and launching a spread of torpedoes.

The PK makes attacks almost too easy but the catch is haveing good data along with a good fireing position.

[groomsie]

Originally Posted by ddiplock

Only thing I haven't tried, is diving to say, 100 feet and trying to get in while running deep. But, that might not work either

In my opinion, that is the issue. I'm not an expert, but my successes in attacking escorted formations have come when I lock onto the "target of interest" (or lead target if there are multiples you are willing to bag--note I don't lock onto the escorts), engage the PK, and--assuming I'm where I'd like to be relative the base track of the group--go deep (prefer below thermal) sit quite and set your torpedoes. Once sonar tells you the lead escort is passing you begin your ascent from the depths and if necessary final maeuver to fire. Your PK should (provided the formation hasn't changed course--always a risk) tell you the range to target based on last know data and if you check the arrows it will tell you bearing to target to start looking. Keep in mind there are other ships out there and you may want to do a sonar (passive) sweep and/or a periscope sweep as you come up looking for possible close calls or a changed tactical situation. Open tubes as soon as you can to be ready to fire quickly. Once up to PD I lock back onto my target, disengage the PK (I've had it really queer a shot sometimes), and then fire.

What I find is if I'm deep the escorts will run right by provided they don't have other reason to have their alert up (such as spotting you as you approach your intercept point). Before, if I was relatively shallow (over 100') I almost always got clobbered.

Good luck man!

[jazman]

Originally Posted by ddiplock

So, I use my discretion and start maneuvering into a firing position on the lead Kongo. One of the nearside destroyers opens up with his ASDIC and everything goes to hell. I dive down to 400ft and evade the sods, not a single depth charge landing near me.

See, they didn't really even come close, did they? Just need a little boldness. The pre-war old-man mentality makes you go deep and hide in fear.

I just did it last night in the Java Sea in a pigboat. The depth charges being dropped weren't that close, and my soundman was tracking one can coming towards me, but he was going to pass by me, so I knew they didn't know where I was, and I went up to periscope depth, and saw what looked like the whole Japanese merchant navy. I managed to sink a freighter as another can bore down on me. Even then, they didn't really find me.

[Kloef]

Thats why navigation is crucial!
Allways position yourself in a favourable position,with a slight angle on the convoys/strike force course.When they are close go to silent running,dive in the thermal layer and KILL THE ENGINES,wait....dont manouvre..if you still have to manouvre you made a mistake,the angle will keep you from being detected!

Let the lead destroyer pass you,now wait untill he passes over you,thats the time you make your move.When he passes go to flank speed for about 5-10 seconds,nobody can hear you now...use the build up speed to manouvre yourself in a firing position..rise to periscope depth,pick the most favourable target(not tonnage,but one with the highest probability of destroying,excluding small ships offcourse) and fire,use more torpedoes if you have a target with another ship trailing on the lane behind her,you'll be suprised how many hits you get that way..use the confusion and dissarray to make your escape,dive to maximum depth and steer into the convoy,keep the boat as close to the ships as you can,this will prevent detection!

If you do this the right way you will become a stalker like me,slowly demolishing the whole convoy,the 2 things you need are time and torpedoes...

If you stay close to a ship in the convoy you will be able to use battlestations and load new torpedoes without being detected,if you are detected there's nothing they can do except use depth charges,damaging their own ships or even sinking them!

Learn to break free from being too defensive,as soon as that first torpedo hits they know you are out there,attack and take your chance,confuse them,do unexpected things that will screw with their sonar's like i decribed above..

[Kruger]

I completely agree.

However, I have tried a more different approach. I allways attack convoys and task forces from distance. Minimum 5000 yards (nighttime preferably). In this way, I can maneuver and use battlestations , thus insuring a high speed reload of torps. I usually attack (in my tambor) two targets, and try to launch the two (three torps each) bow salvos as grouped as possible. More than this, I try to calculate my position and pick the targets in such a way that when I fire the first three torpedoes they are set to low speed, and the next three torpedoes are set to high speed. If everything goes well, both salvos will impact two different ships at different distances in approximately the same time. This timing doesn't allow the second ship to take evasive action after the first ship has been hit.

The escorts will go mad, hell will break loose within the shios, but you will be far away. As I said, about 5000 yards. Do not move (you are still presenting your small cross section to the DD's), stay on PD or at 45 meters, reload fast. Rise again, and see if you have another opportunity. By this time the remaining ships will be zig-zagging, but if you are lucky and careful you can still hit something.

[groomsie]

Just last night I'm setting up ahead of a large merchant convoy, 7 merchants, 2 DDs and 2 subchasers. It is late afternoon, clear, I'm out around 6k from nearest subchaser and in position around 1k off track of near column, the lead subchaser opposite side of far column. I'm at PD monitoring, stopped, preparing to go deep to wait when I see the subchaser coming directly toward me. Hmmm. Then I can see at least 1 DD appearing to follow. I decide to just go deep and wait (as I planned to do)...only to have all 4 escorts meet over top of me and start dropping DCs!

I took some damage, managed to repair most of it while creeping toward the body of the convoy. Finally got frustrated with all this and crossed under a merchie (to shake the escort) while coming up to PD to attack. The "total mayhem attack" was successful, sinking 2 large modern composites and an old tanker on 10 torpedoes (and my "cutie" hit something too, but no confirmed sinking). More DCs and that darn subchaser was leading the charge, having an uncanny ability to find me it seemed. I finally managed to creep away and lived to fight, but...

Made me think about if they should have detected me at all at that kind of range. The only thing I can think is it is possible that where I was set up (NNE of convoy, which was on a 350 base course) the afternoon sun may have reflected off my periscope and made the subchaser curious?

[SteamWake]

Originally Posted by groomsie

the afternoon sun may have reflected off my periscope and made the subchaser curious?

Although it may be 'super human' yes they will see your scope. Next time follow the fleet using passive sonar

I may raise my scope momentarily for a snapshot but it goes right back down again. No more than 30 seconds. Even that gets 'spotted' occassionally.

[Rockin Robbins]

Now, just because they are pinging you, that doesn't mean they know where you are. Yes they automatically will ping you every time, but no, that doesn't mean they detect you and will react to your presence. Plenty of times in TMO I have just ignored a pinging destroyer and snuck right by or right away. Patience is your friend. Flinch and hit the jets at the wrong time and they'll detect you for sure. Be very slow and deliberate about your decision-making.

I know this doesn't make rational sense, but we are talking about a computer, not a submarine, water and an escort. The nature of simulation is often weirdness.

[SteamWake]

Escorts pinging out into the 'darkness' is one thing, but when they all come over to your general location as a group and start dropping cans its a pretty sure bet they know your there.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by SteamWake

Escorts pinging out into the 'darkness' is one thing, but when they all come over to your general location as a group and start dropping cans its a pretty sure bet they know your there.

Excellent evidence!