Out of Fuel

[Sailor Steve]

Another thing to consider about "calling for help": If you're off the coast of Japan, there isn't going to be any. Period.

It's like a U-boat calling for help while stranded south of Greenland.

[tater]

There is a legit point here, I have had engine damage (diesel) that is 100%. I have been holed and lost all my fuel. Not 10nm from Tokyo, but in the Java Sea. In RL they might come and take off the crew (in another sub) then scuttle the boat at the very least.

I have no idea how to do this, but it would be cool to have an outside the game app to help.

You are stuck someplace that you feel is realistic to get home from (honor system, obviously). You save the game there---maybe with a standard part tot he front of the name like "rescue_". Exit.

Run a little app that would open the save, and make you either RTB, or ideally RTB with a forced "transfer to a new boat" dialog.

It would be assumed you were picked up and your boat scuttled.

tater

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by tater

I have no idea how to do this, but it would be cool to have an outside the game app to help.

SH3 Commander does something similar for that game; it lets you die and then change "Dead" to "Surrendered". I don't know if there is a way to make it let you choose between "Captured" and "Rescued", but maybe the upcoming SH4 Skipper will have something like that included.

It would be a good thing.

[Farinhir]

Originally Posted by PepsiCan

It costs fuel to recharge. And not all the fuel you burn will result in electricity for your battery. Some energy will be lost in the form of heat or friction.

So, stay surfaced for the best mileage.

On a sub, there are 4 diesel engines. In principle they can run all the time. The diesels drive 4 electricity generators. The generators can either drive the propellor shafts or they can recharge batteries. If you run at 2/3rd, two electric engines will be utilised to propel the boat, and the remaining two will be used to charge batteries. So, the slower you sail, the faster your batteries can be recharged. That also means that, in reality - dunno about the game, fuel for 4 diesels would be consumed while only two would be used to propel the boat.

Hence, staying on the surface is more economic.

I hope this helps.

Good point here. I was not sure if they modelled this one though. It makes sense as there is more drag (loss of boyancy) and more friction underwater. I know that SSN and SSBN class subs have less friction underwater due to their teardrop shape and can therefore move faster underwater since they get more friction on the surface, but they do not have to worry about the fuel consumption from the increase in drag while submerged because they are not on a conventional fuel.


@Tater
One thing that you could also consider is that you might not have a forced transfer from one boat to the next. I am sure that they could have towed a sub a short distance and refit it at a port if it was close enough. Just a thought.

~F~

[MacArthur]

From a historical perspecitve, I don't think we could afford to leave any equipment behind if at all possible in WW2. If there was ANY chance at recovering a boat out of fuel we would do it! Most positivly rescue the crew. Without a doubt. Hmm, sounds like a half baked idea for a mission from other games...

I need to learn to mod so i can help, but here is a basic, common sense approch to do this from. There are two main parts missing from the game that would make this happen. 1) the ability, even on some limited basis to be in contact with other units in your operating group or in your general area, like a passing task force or patrol ship for example. (To expand on that more com options with HQ would be nice too...) 2) some sort of rescue / refuel / retrieval option.

Now here is where it gets fun and easy, so to speak.

Step one.The com radio is already in place as we send status and contact info to HQ already. All we need (I assume) is to duplicate the "distress call" like the other stations on the radio such as Captain midnights CBS. In short, a new frequency for "help".

Step two has two parts, three if I read the threads right.

Part one, is you put in the call for help, and keep your stuff together until they show up to get you. Fun in its own right, and stressful to I can imagine.

Part 2, Help could come from another sub, or say a DD or other type, dispached to your location. Cool part is, you don't know who's coming. Just that someone is. If a sub shows, it's a crew rescue only. It's a hot zone and there is no time for anything else. If DD or other, its crew rescue or dump some quick fuel in your boat so you can get underway depending on damage state. Either way has options to develope and can add quite a bit to the game for some drama, and realism.

The third option is a full hook up with a tender of some sorts. I've heard rumors in the forums about this so I wont rule it out. I know from my RL Navy experiance that not if IN the battle group they aren't far behind, is the tenders and supply ships. I really hope these make it in the game at some point.

This might be a tad long winded, sorry if thats the case. Point is that it would seem that the infrastructure is already there for the radio call for help, and there would not be any new ships to develope as they currently exist as well. Just a que from your location and a rendevous time. Once help arrives, it can prompt a screen like entering back into port with refit or end patrol menu comming up. Once again, already there.

I know there are many hours of time and tears involved in these. You guys are rock stars in my eyes to be able to pull these kinds of things off on a regular basis. I just hope I have helpful Ideas.

Thaks for listening.

[PepsiCan]

Originally Posted by ming

CaptainCox is working on better interface options for fuel management...but I doubt he will be producing invincible fuel tanks. Try running submerged on batteries and only using diesels to recharge. I returned to port one time submerged on 10% batteries and no fuel. It was cool because the band was still playing and the crowd was still cheering as I surfaced inside the sub pen!

First of all, this was a bug that is now fixed with patch 1.3. No more batteries recharging when out of fuel.

1) best fuel efficiency is achieved when running at 2/3rd speed (around 10 knots) on the surface. A strategy of running submerged during the day and surfaced at night will severely shorten your patrol time as recharging your batteries will consume more fuel. Yes, the game takes that into account. In reality, most boats went to their patrol areas surfaced. They only submerged for airplanes or to attack convoys.

2) when deep in enemy territory and out of fuel, scuttle your boat. There's no way you're coming back. In real life, how big do you think the chances are that the navy will risk a destroyer or supply ship to help you out when you're deep in enemy held territory? The only thing that happened in real life was that sometimes a sub nearby would be send over to rescue the crew or attempt to supply the boat with diesel.

3) Don't get into a gun duel with the escorts. Certainly since patch 3, you stand little chance of winning without serious damage.

simply overtake a freighter and force them to surrender, then borrow his fuel lol.


just add another to list of missing elements of game that you cant radio for assistance.

[tater]

You get different messages when you get killed or the boat sinks. Sometimes you are offered a new boat. I have had this happen in situations where I was sunk in a way that didn't suggest survival was even an option.

So the question is this:

where are the files to mess with those messages and perhaps the % chance of one outcome vs another (a posthumus medal, or a new boat, etc)? If we could mod them, you could simply scuttle the boat as suggested and get a new one (assume you were taken off by another sub).

tater

[Roger Dodger]

Originally Posted by MacArthur

From a historical perspecitve, I don't think we could afford to leave any equipment behind if at all possible in WW2. If there was ANY chance at recovering a boat out of fuel we would do it! Most positivly rescue the crew. Without a doubt. Hmm, sounds like a half baked idea for a mission from other games...

I need to learn to mod so i can help, but here is a basic, common sense approch to do this from. There are two main parts missing from the game that would make this happen. 1) the ability, even on some limited basis to be in contact with other units in your operating group or in your general area, like a passing task force or patrol ship for example. (To expand on that more com options with HQ would be nice too...) 2) some sort of rescue / refuel / retrieval option.

Now here is where it gets fun and easy, so to speak.

Step one.The com radio is already in place as we send status and contact info to HQ already. All we need (I assume) is to duplicate the "distress call" like the other stations on the radio such as Captain midnights CBS. In short, a new frequency for "help".

Step two has two parts, three if I read the threads right.

Part one, is you put in the call for help, and keep your stuff together until they show up to get you. Fun in its own right, and stressful to I can imagine.

Part 2, Help could come from another sub, or say a DD or other type, dispached to your location. Cool part is, you don't know who's coming. Just that someone is. If a sub shows, it's a crew rescue only. It's a hot zone and there is no time for anything else. If DD or other, its crew rescue or dump some quick fuel in your boat so you can get underway depending on damage state. Either way has options to develope and can add quite a bit to the game for some drama, and realism.

The third option is a full hook up with a tender of some sorts. I've heard rumors in the forums about this so I wont rule it out. I know from my RL Navy experiance that not if IN the battle group they aren't far behind, is the tenders and supply ships. I really hope these make it in the game at some point.

. . .

I know there are many hours of time and tears involved in these. You guys are rock stars in my eyes to be able to pull these kinds of things off on a regular basis. I just hope I have helpful Ideas.

Thaks for listening.

All great ideas, and all the ideas could lead to some very 'interesting' results if our modders can run with them.

Distress Call . . .

You would have to give away your position when you call for help, so you could be 'rescued' by a Jap destroyer, as well as friendly forces. 'They' could also be in hiding just below the horizon, and get two birds with one stone if they were patient enough to wait until you get your help. If the 'help' requested were somehow based on percentages as to who shows up, it would add alot of uncertainty to the situation. The closer you are to a Japanese controlled area, the greater percentage of having the wrong kind of help showing up.

What do you do if the wrong side answers your Mayday? Surrender your boat and crew? Surrender the crew and scuttle the boat? Duke it out, and go down fighting? Any of these should probably end in 'Game Over'. Fun to think about, though.

My two cents worth:

Page 59 of 'The Manual' says:

Map Information

The following elements would be displayed on the navigation map:

Ports

• Submarine bases - Harbors where you can resupply with torpedoes and fuel, recruit new crew and repair your submarine.
• Allied ports
Harbors where you can resupply with fuel and repair your submarine.
• Neutral ports
Harbors where you can resupply with fuel.

• Enemy ports

. . . yet only the Submarine Bases are active. ALL ports on the Nav Map are in Blue (friendly), NONE are in RED (Japanese occupied). If one of our clever modders could activate the Allied and Neutral ports, at least we could save a 3000 mile trip back to Pearl just for fuel (and 3000 miles back to Japan). It would be useful to paint the Occupied ports RED, so we wouldn't enter one of these by mistake (like I did once).

Page 42 also shows a Fulton Class Submarine Tender, so the modeling has been done, but don't seem to be included in the game. Wouldn't it be nice to have a couple of these ships 'on station' in stratigic areas to either refuel/rearm, rescue or repair us? There should be percentage chance for these to get themselves torpedoed or bombed and strafed by the Japs before they can help out. The closer to Japanese controlled waters they are, the greater the percentage. You would be especially helpful to them to broadcast your position.

Great suggestions!

Run Silent, Run Deep

LtCdr. Roger Dodger (USCGR)

[panthercules]

Just a thought - the modders did a great job "faking" milk cows into SH3, seemingly in some cases at least making a friendly German freighter act like a "port" that you could dock at. I have no clue how they did it, but I wonder if either:

1. You could make a ship into a "port", but make it so the ship could move and come find you (seems unlikely, but would be cool); or

2. You could have a little routine/applet that could be run outside of the game and script into whatever file you use to place these milk cows into the world one of these milk cow "ports" at the location where you're stranded (that you fill in the blank of the applet, having jotted it down when you saved your game), so the next time you loaded your saved game there'd be a tender at your location and you could refuel/repair/rearm or (depending on the circumstances) maybe transfer to a new base/boat. Not sure if that kind of change can be made while you're in mid-patrol without causing some other problem, but if so maybe it would be something worth trying.

[MacArthur]

Distress Call . . .

You would have to give away your position when you call for help, so you could be 'rescued' by a Jap destroyer, as well as friendly forces.


1) Well, I would argue that you no more give away your position sending a status report or a contact report. Besides... You are stuck! You have to try right? So far, I have never seen any activity coming my way from a radio report. So far...

'They' could also be in hiding just below the horizon, and get two birds with one stone if they were patient enough to wait until you get your help.

2) True. If it were you or I, I would say that tactic would be very likely. However, I don't feel that the game has that kind of AI in it. If they knew your location (and usually only by detection) they would rush in for the kill like they already do.

If the 'help' requested were somehow based on percentages as to who shows up, it would add alot of uncertainty to the situation. The closer you are to a Japanese controlled area, the greater percentage of having the wrong kind of help showing up.

3) The uncertainty is part of the built in drama I was eluding to prior. I think it adds a nice touch.

I DO like the idea of where you are dictates what kind of help you get though. In to deep, and you only come away with your uniform and a swell story. Probably rescued by a sub in that case. Now lets say you can make it outside Jap air coverage... Then you have a high probability of a destroyer rescue and maybe enough fuel to get to a port. I think the Air coverage zones would be a fair line to make that happen. I do however think that a supply ship getting to you is a totally unreasonable idea. Just to risky and unlikely. Now if you follow the line of thought with the inside/ouside air coverage zones... the next logical step would be to say (if implemented) a tender rendevous ouside the "limit of japanese expansion 1942" line. Then it would seem more reasonable and likely a tender could actually reach you without to much fear of threat. And if you look at it, past that line, you are so close to making it to a base, they have to throw you a bone now and then huh? lol Heck, I'd keep paddles on board if that were the case! lol

What do you do if the wrong side answers your Mayday? Surrender your boat and crew? Surrender the crew and scuttle the boat? Duke it out, and go down fighting? Any of these should probably end in 'Game Over'. Fun to think about, though.

4) If that should happen, I guess it's up to each commander. I believe i would do everything i could to stay undetected until they give up and leave. Maybe then my buddies will show up and I'll have one hell of a bar tab... But I asure you, they won't get me without a fight if it comes to it! Boarding parties away!

I also would like to see the ports activated for use as well. Definatly a color difference for referance. All blue just doesn't make sense. Even SH3 had this done right. Like the instruction book eludes to, gas is gas, and I feel better with a full tank. Even if its just to get back to Base, or continue a patrol so you can get in a spot to catch a convoy. It's almost impossible at 2/3rds. Almost...

[Roger Dodger]

Originally Posted by MacArthur

Distress Call . . .

You would have to give away your position when you call for help, so you could be 'rescued' by a Jap destroyer, as well as friendly forces.


1) Well, I would argue that you no more give away your position sending a status report or a contact report. Besides... You are stuck! You have to try right? So far, I have never seen any activity coming my way from a radio report. So far...

I make it a point to never break radio silence, except status reports after a successful attack. Then get away from the area as fast as possible. I just ASSUME 'they' are ALWAYS listening, and they're pretty good at triangulation. Like W. C. Fields used to say, "Never give a sucker an even break, and never smarten up a chump."

Originally Posted by MacArthur

'They' could also be in hiding just below the horizon, and get two birds with one stone if they were patient enough to wait until you get your help.

2) True. If it were you or I, I would say that tactic would be very likely. However, I don't feel that the game has that kind of AI in it. If they knew your location (and usually only by detection) they would rush in for the kill like they already do.

I'm probably giving the Japs more credit than they are due; after all, they were warriors, not terrorists.

Originally Posted by MacArthur

If the 'help' requested were somehow based on percentages as to who shows up, it would add alot of uncertainty to the situation. The closer you are to a Japanese controlled area, the greater percentage of having the wrong kind of help showing up.

3) The uncertainty is part of the built in drama I was eluding to prior. I think it adds a nice touch.

I DO like the idea of where you are dictates what kind of help you get though. In to deep, and you only come away with your uniform and a swell story. Probably rescued by a sub in that case. Now lets say you can make it outside Jap air coverage... Then you have a high probability of a destroyer rescue and maybe enough fuel to get to a port. I think the Air coverage zones would be a fair line to make that happen. I do however think that a supply ship getting to you is a totally unreasonable idea. Just to risky and unlikely. Now if you follow the line of thought with the inside/ouside air coverage zones... the next logical step would be to say (if implemented) a tender rendevous ouside the "limit of japanese expansion 1942" line. Then it would seem more reasonable and likely a tender could actually reach you without to much fear of threat. And if you look at it, past that line, you are so close to making it to a base, they have to throw you a bone now and then huh? lol Heck, I'd keep paddles on board if that were the case! lol

Uncertainty + stress = DRAMA, and turns a 'game' into a real Nail-Biter. I'm not a modder, and don't even know if these routines would be moddable or if there would have to be changes in the hard-code of the program. I've seen some pretty amazing things done by our modders, though, so I hope one of them picks up on this thread and runs with it.

If you have your radio on, maybe you could even get a message from Tokiyo Rose: "To the officers and men of the S-36; Sorry to hear you have run out of fuel. Rest easy though, one of our ships is enroute to lend assistance."

Originally Posted by MacArthur

What do you do if the wrong side answers your Mayday? Surrender your boat and crew? Surrender the crew and scuttle the boat? Duke it out, and go down fighting? Any of these should probably end in 'Game Over'. Fun to think about, though.

4) If that should happen, I guess it's up to each commander. I believe i would do everything i could to stay undetected until they give up and leave. Maybe then my buddies will show up and I'll have one hell of a bar tab... But I asure you, they won't get me without a fight if it comes to it! Boarding parties away!

Now, there's a great idea for a mod! Boarding a Sampan or Junk makes more sense to me than wasting 30 shells on it (or wasting torpedos for a 2 ton victory). Usually, by the time I need help (out of fuel or heavy damage) I'm out of torpedos AND shells. Most of my attacks (in my antique S-Boat) are surface attacks. Hell, I've sunk more tonnage with the deck gun than with torpedos. What to do if I get cornered out of fuel and armament? Shift to Electric and STAND BY TO RAM!, then jump for it before it hits.

Originally Posted by MacArthur

I also would like to see the ports activated for use as well. Definatly a color difference for referance. All blue just doesn't make sense. Even SH3 had this done right. Like the instruction book eludes to, gas is gas, and I feel better with a full tank. Even if its just to get back to Base, or continue a patrol so you can get in a spot to catch a convoy. It's almost impossible at 2/3rds. Almost...

Any friendly port should have at least a dock and fuel. Darwin, Australia had a sub tender on site for much of the war. There is a very good thread on Darwin either here or over at the UBI forums. During the first couple of years of the war, the Japs were constantly bombing or shelling Darwin, and even invading. They even sent a four carrier task force once. Refueling at Darwin could be 'a little dangerous'. But, again, this would add to the drama.

Color differences (Blue=Allied, Red=Japanese Occupied, Green=Neutral) is a MUST, and ALL friendly ports should be able to supply fuel.

[MacArthur]

I think these ideas are plausable and have a sound base for implementation by a MOD... or 2, as I see the port colors/refuel thing as not to complicated to do (with respect for the effort and skill involved) from what I have seen them do so far.

What I would really like is to hear some thoughts on what we have discussed here recently from some of those gods of mods. It would be interesting to get their perspective on these ideas.

[tater]

A lot is limited by what is possible.

Adding ports is easy, i could do that for you in 30 minutes, where do you want them?

I was thinking of adding various facilities, actually, though they'd not be of huge use. Espiritu Santo, for example. Port Moresby would be another. There is no way to limit such "naval bases" to have just fuel though, so you'd be on your honor not to reload with fish (turn autoloading off, and maybe put silent running on while you "refit" (should be "rearm/refuel").

Boarding, or other ideas posted are cool, but don't seem terribly likely within the engine (anyone with more skills pease prove me wrong!).

There are no triggers related to the state of your sub, so that won't work. Units don;t extemporize movement other than escorts, and evasion.

Sadly, I think the best option for "rescue" would be to mod the parameters for getting a new boat on death/sinking. That or messing with saved games somehow.

tater

[Roger Dodger]

Originally Posted by MacArthur

I think these ideas are plausable and have a sound base for implementation by a MOD... or 2, as I see the port colors/refuel thing as not to complicated to do (with respect for the effort and skill involved) from what I have seen them do so far.

What I would really like is to hear some thoughts on what we have discussed here recently from some of those gods of mods. It would be interesting to get their perspective on these ideas.

It has indeed been a fun brainstorming session. Perhaps one of the Gods of the Mods will take up the challenge.

At the very least, I would like to see the Nav Map fixed as far as activating friendly ports, coloring Jap bases RED, and fix the glaring spelling mistakes (like JAWA for Java).

Run Silent, Run Deep

LtCdr. Roger Dodger, USCG(R)
Commanding S-36
Cavite, Philippines